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I just took a look at the Holland Big Red Classic results from Saturday August 7th, 2010. Seems that numbers won the tournament. Giv-N-The Bird won the pros with 10 fish weighing 82.25 lbs and Pier Addiction won the amateur side with 10 fish weighing 97.35 lbs. We did not enter the tournament, but watched as all the boats trolled right by us while we were fishing out of Saugatuck. We were on big fish, that now looking back would have won big salmon, big fish, and the 3 we had would have taken the 333. Dan who fishes with us calibrated the scale in the boat tonight and found out it is measuring 3 pounds light!!!! Wow!!!

Anyways I guess my question is when fishing a tournament and you get on big fish, not big numbers, do you stay on them? Or do you peel off and go for your limit hoping that a nice fish will come?

The results are here http://www.bigredclassic.com/staticscore10.php

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Personally I would not move if I was getting fish however points are important so if I know I can do better somewhere else and I can afford the boat gas I will be gone. This year boat gas has been tought to come by so I tend to fish close to home.

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We stay on big fish when we find them. Usually it is as much as a program and troll as a location. Very few fish were weighed for the 333 Sat as well. We would have won the 333 too if we entered 3 fish. We came in 3rd weighing only 2 since Sunday was cancelled.

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We had another 13.5 lb king that we did not weight on Saturday in the 333 as did the boat right next to us at the dock.

The thing that most people do in tournaments is fish the big fish until you are out of them. If you only have 6 or 7 out of 10 then you try to bounce the bottom for a few lakers later in the day (or go deep for a few steel, depending on how quickly you can get there). The game IS numbers in Salmon tournaments. If you check the board, our 7 fish weighed enough to put us in 3rd or 4th, but we got bounced by numbers. To that point a boat that only weighed 5 or 6 had bigger weight than us.

Also, pulpfishin, I'm wondering how early you were fishing?

These tournmaments run after sun up because it is more of a contest of skill at those times. Almost any fisherman can catch fish at first light or just before it (not that you were, but others were out very early).

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Ah, you must have read 1/3 of the post.

Two big fish would have gotten you jack (&*)& this weekend.

It was about numbers and many good fisherman had trouble getting numbers after sun up. I rarely ruffle feathers here, as you can see by my other posts, whcih are very complimentary, but I have you say that diesel is getting on my nerves with his retorts.

If you are in the competition then you had a chance to weigh your fish and it would have counted. If you were not, then don't wish you were. Pony up the money and play.

Sorry if I am offending some of you, but think about how those of us that were in the tournament and did pay to play feel about your comments.

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Ah' date=' you must have read 1/3 of the post.

Two big fish would have gotten you jack (&*)& this weekend.

It was about numbers and many good fisherman had trouble getting numbers after sun up. I rarely ruffle feathers here, as you can see by my other posts, whcih are very complimentary, but I have you say that diesel is getting on my nerves with his retorts.

If you are in the competition then you had a chance to weigh your fish and it would have counted. If you were not, then don't wish you were. Pony up the money and play.

Sorry if I am offending some of you, but think about how those of us that were in the tournament and did pay to play feel about your comments.[/quote']

now, now. I was just asking a question. We fished many of the tournament trail events for many years. I never received an answer to this question when we fished them. We are by no means professional, but seem to be able to get on decent fish, but the numbers are usually not there. All I wanted to know was would you waste your time trying to pick up a couple teeners or would you go for tiny jacks and 2 year olds. I completely understand the points system. But being that a lot of money is at stake in the 333 and big fish and big species, what would you do?

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Fair enough.

Good question.

Diesel just has to pick on everyone.

My answer (I think) was in the post as well.

I'd stay on the fish if you can get at least one every 30 minutes or so.

If they are coming one an hour you won't have time to get a full box.

If you have about 4-6 fish and have two or so hours left to fish, I would go after some lakers (on the bottom) or change water.

This greatly depends on the port as you probably know.

Muskegon offers opportunities to go and fish the nets in the last two hours, and Ludington you can fish different depths quickly.

In Grand Haven, Holland and south you have to change tactics.

Sometimes this means going deep for steel on top (in calm weather).

Sometimes this means going in front and trying to fish the mud (listen to Hitman for tips on this topic).

If you were able to catch the event this past winter they gave a lot of great advice on fishing different species and different waters.

Sorry again to attack the post.

Yours was a great question.

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Like said by mark, we will stay on big fish until there is no more. There are alot of variables. You have to be in the pier heads by 1 or 2 or your DQ ed. The biggest thing on our boat ( and probably many others) is you have to weigh 10 fish or 12 fish. So that 3 or 4 lb fish is worth 13 or 14 points. The weight of big kings is good, but you also have to have your numbers.

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Fair enough.

Good question.

Diesel just has to pick on everyone.

My answer (I think) was in the post as well.

I'd stay on the fish if you can get at least one every 30 minutes or so.

If they are coming one an hour you won't have time to get a full box.

If you have about 4-6 fish and have two or so hours left to fish' date=' I would go after some lakers (on the bottom) or change water.

This greatly depends on the port as you probably know.

Muskegon offers opportunities to go and fish the nets in the last two hours, and Ludington you can fish different depths quickly.

In Grand Haven, Holland and south you have to change tactics.

Sometimes this means going deep for steel on top (in calm weather).

Sometimes this means going in front and trying to fish the mud (listen to Hitman for tips on this topic).

If you were able to catch the event this past winter they gave a lot of great advice on fishing different species and different waters.

Sorry again to attack the post.

Yours was a great question.[/quote']

hows was that picking on anyone i was stating that 2 of the 3 fish came well after sun up

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Spoonfed is correct. Holland sent their check back. From others in the tourney and around the docks I heard that the Holland Big Red Classic is a invitational tournament and I guess they decided not to invite Dave and Bill. Take that as you will, it is just what I heard.

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I was told by reasonably reliable sources their entry fee was sent back. I might also point out they are no longer listed in the South Division 333 they were in second place and are now gone from the list completely. If you think I am just a hater and making it up look for yourself http://www.tournamenttrail.net/cumulative_pro_south.htm. I am pretty sure this will be deleted but it is what it is they were caught cheating perhaps the wheels are grinding a little slowly and I have no idea what the final outcome will end up being nor is any of it up to me. However I have been told by a few who are involved it is far from over so those who want this to just go away will need to stick your heads back in the sand and click your heels a little harder.

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I believe this is not at all about Dave and Bill but more about how the rules are, or better yet are not being enforced on the biggest Great Lakes tournament trail. I do believe that Fred and the tournament trail directors may be forced to make an example of the most decorated team ever on Lake Michigan to prove the point that unfair practices while on the water will not be tolerated. In my opinion it is too bad it had to come to this, but to better enforce the rules and to ensure an even playing field it may have to be done.

I do believe that some serious rule changes need to be considered. I personally think that catching 15 and weighing 10 in some tournaments is way overboard. I also think that the rules need to be exactly the same in every port. Maybe separate rules for amateurs and pros, but they need to be the same. I have sat through the captain's meetings before on tournament trail events and they are more confusing than informative. Please don't turn this into a Best Chance Too thing, but I would like to hear some comments on how to make the rules more foolproof, maybe like the Bassmasters or FLW or something. Feel free to move this and let's talk about how to make these tournaments, which are fantastic fun, more fair!

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Honestly for me it has never been about the team in question. I am not sure it is needed to make big rule changes most of the rules have been pretty clear for those who want to fish by them. The Gray area as some see it is only created by those who look for a way around simple rules. I can assure you as I told a couple of my friends nearly everything I have said about the subject I would have said no matter who the boat was including some of my close friends. The fact is it seems the entire country has gone downhill in terms of moral values I am not sure what the outcome will be there either but my gut feeling is it won't be good. I have heard many talk about lowering the box limits but the thought occurs to me wouldn't that make every fish more important and increase the chances that people would try and cheat. As long as people are willing to trade their honor and integrity for a few bucks and a prize it really won't matter what the rules are.

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I know that the money is not there yet, but what about running video cameras on every pro boat, or at the very least paid observers on every boat. Would it be worth the extra 20 to 50 bucks, maybe more, for every pro team to make sure the rules were enforced?

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Many of the Pro Teams hire observers locally for events going rate is 50 bucks a day. Sadly often the observers don't even seem to know all the rules as mostly they look for people who won't get seasick LOL. What I would assume could be done is for the TT and events to provide Observers rather than each team providing one and then swapping thme around from boat to boat. Simply put there is not a gray area if a fish is legal and it is a no cull event then it needs to go in the box and be scored. If you see guys horseing small fish and knocking them off by any means they need to be DQ'd this applies to AM boats as well lots of us have been saying for years that there is no way some of the boxes brought in day after day happen without some magic involved. Yes there are programs that lean towards bigger fish but that does not stop 5 to 8 lb fish from hitting them. Clubbing them with a net does however LOL. If as a few say the gray area extends to a lot more boats it is gonna take a pretty big marshall to straighten the mess out. I will bet it will be a interesting winter for a lot of Tournament committees sorting out how they will procede next season.

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Now this is a much more productive conversation.

I'll voice my opinion now that we are talking proactively.

I am for a catch 15 weigh 10 program.

Catching 15 makes sense with the 9 rod limit.

3 man rod limit, 3 man fish limit.

That way you can cull and still follow the rules.

This would also provide less reason for people to knock fish off with the net or another tactic.

There has been some talk about a fish in the box is a fish weighed, as opposed to throwing them back like in Bass Masters. I'm a little weary of this idea as I think that mishandling of small fish would lead to a lot of fish floating on the water. Sometimes even when you try to handle a fish right it doesn't work out.

This is great guys. Lets get some GOOD ideas out there so that Tournament trail has something to build from this winter. I agree with Jim, they are certainly going to be talking this winter. Lets make sure they have comments to use rather than just complaints.

Nice work turning this around. And again, I am sorry for starting to complain.

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Thanks Mark I think a lot of people have tried to make this about BC2 when the real issue is rules, honor and integrity. If as some have tried you turn it in to a popularity contest you lose sight of the root problem. There is no cheat proof rules well maybe there could be but I doubt very many would be willing to put money on the line and fish by them. The idea that you really wanted to win so you were forced to cheat is no good either. Nor is the argument that others cheat and win so it should be ok for you to do it. Simply put man up and play by the rules or accept your fate. I have really wanted to win nearly everything I have ever tried to do. I admit I have really wanted to catch fish more than win a few times and have made the decision to withdraw from a couple of events and just fish. However since I never weighed a fish caught outside the rules how is that cheating as has been insinuated by some? I guess I am not serious enough about tourny fishing cause if it is not going well I just accept that I sucked and move on LOL.

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Things are fine the way they are. These individual tourneys are a blessing for the community and local clubs. Most dish out 100+% cash and prizes and put on a heck of a show for us fisher people. They raise monies for charity, donate fish, and get involved in the fishery. If you are not involved with these clubs like the Steelheaders and you are complaining about all this shame on you.

We're honest as a team and can compete with that. Most if not all guys are honest I believe. It's a small community and generally the truth will come out. We hear things and can't control that, so we just look out for ourselves. The rules are the rules that we all have to follow.

The rules of 10 fish no cull was supposed to draw more participation and protect the fishery. Most guys don't catch a limit or 10 fish every time out so that's what makes this fun. There's not enough money to make any really. A couple wins in a season and you might have some money to upgrade or party a bit, and if you don't win the $$$ goes down fast.

I like 9 rods, open communication, catch 15 weigh 10, bonus points for trout was cool. Keep it simple, no log sheets, everyone drops their cooler at weigh in, everyone leaves from the same port.

Sounds like maybe you guys should have entered and won some prizes. Saugatuck is this weekend and there's always next year.;)

.

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