GM and Bail Out Money

[GLF]

I am already irked about the billions, and billions of dollars we are giving the banks, and the million dollar bonuses these companies are giving out.

I also have an issue with the government using U.S. tax payers money to bail out GM.

What has me irked, is that we are giving GM billions of U.S. tax payers dollars to stay afloat, but they are shutting down plants in the U.S. for restructuring.

Since they are using U.S. tax payers money, how come they are not keeping the U.S. plants open, and shutting down the plants in Canada, and other places instead?

[Boltman]

Wel it's like this Mike, there is a huge stock pile of cars here in the USA, where I do not know, but it is said that they have almost 150 days of inventory on hnd and pople(banks) aren't lending as they should. We sell a part to a tier 1 supplier to Gm, it goes on the Malibu, G6 and the saturn Aura... it holds the transmission down via bolts that go through them,it takes 3 per car..... now it 2008 we were selling GM 130,000 pieces a month.... now we are barely selling them 50,000 a month. None in January, February,March and it just started in April. And now they are shutting down at the end of May....Wow this is really going to hurt our income, like 805 of me and mifes income, but we will get by and we will survive, but I do not know about other Larger suppliers, we're small and we can cut expenses quickly unlike the larer suppliers that have massive overhead costs, they will drop like flies, faster then they already have. We have seen 3 suppliers ht the bricks so far, and one of my customers is getting takeover business everyday from "distressed" Auto suppliers... go Figure.

Thank God I have small customers that make me money as well, but everyone,and I mean everyone is linked to the Automotive makers somehow, if they think they aren't, I will show them where they are, its going to be a very baad chain of events,if it happens at all. In my opinion, I believe crime will go up out of control, and more people are going to lose their houses and cars... Yes even boats, we have our house almost all paid off and our car and truck are free and clear too, so they are safe, and the boat, well that's another story...but I will survive because I am a fighter and I will succeed, that attitude is what has kept me in business now for over 20 years...

and as for the other plants, they will idle too.. because they won't be able to ship their product anywheres... like Canada and their transmissions.... and Mexico with thir Engines to cars no parts to ship.... it's a seriuos trickle down and it will trickel down... right down to the donut man on the corner...

But Let's not think about this Lets Fish gentlemen the fish don't care what car or truck you drive....

[GLF]

I am not against giving GM money. I understand how important the automakers are to the economy. What I dont understand is why they are shutting down U.S. plants to restructure instead of plants that are outside of the U.S.A.

Its our tax paying money.......close the plants in the other countries first.

[Vitalidle]

Just a guess on my part as I have no inside info, but maybe the canadian and mexico plants make the models that are still selling at the moment. I am a free market kind of guy, but they stood up the fat cats on wallstreet already so helping out our manufacuring base I can swallow a tad bit easier.

[1mainiac]

They should have been allowed to fail along with all the rest this is pure BS spending trillions of our kids money and it won't work. But the kids will still get the bills for it this will eventually cause inflation like you have never seen. sooner or later we have to realize you can't fix overspending by spending more. Ask the Japanese how it worked for them and they have always had a better tradition of saving then we ever did. As it stands right now our debt load is approaching GDP which means every dollar produced in the USA is owed to someone else. At current rates in 12 years our debt will equal the GDP of the entire earth. And still they spend and print more money. Now we get to take over Chrysler's overwhelming retirement health benifits plan prepare to shovel money as it will have no real value. Every one should write themselves a check for a million dollars and then go spend it that is what the government did a few weeks ago only it was trillions of dollars. Nearly every member of government should be hung for treason for those who voted for change here it is we are about to become a 3rd world nation led by crooks who even if voted out get bennies for life. The core of government Repub and Dem is bad Reagen was the last of the decent ones Ted Kennedy has been a drunken bum Senator nearly all of my life. When you take out government workers and welfare receipants and all the rest you will see that less than half of the country pays all the bills this is why the Pilgrams nearly starved if not for the indians taking pity on them they would have. And why they agreed that working as a group for the common good allowed way to many to be lazy and just suck off the system. Socialisim is a total failure every where on the planet and yet our government drives us straight toward it or a version of it with a new name. The US constitution layed the frame work for the greatest country on the planet anyone want to guess where Roosevelts New Deal and all the liberal crap that has followed it will lead us? It is time for us to grow a pair and regain our country before it is too late it is sad to think we may need a second revolution to fix this but apparently it may be the only answer we cannot survive 4 years of this crap.

[Paulywood]

I work for a Tier 1 supplier and I have seen the cuts from all of the auto companies, Honda and Toyota included. Our orders are down over half of what they were 2 years ago. It is a very tough time for all of the car companies now. I hated the fact that the US government gave all of the banks money with no questions asked, but threw the auto companies under the bus. As for what Mike said, a lot of the US plants are old and unprofitable. Even though cars are made in other countries the money ends up back in the US. Even though I would love to see more plants in the US, I understand why in some cases it makes no sense business wise. I believe it is important for the US to maintain a strong manufacturing base. I have a lot of friends and family members that rely on GM and other auto companies for their livelihood. I think that keeping GM and Chrysler out of bankruptcy is the best option. Hundreds of thousands of retirees will lose significant portions of their pensions if the US government is forced to take over pension obligations. Some toughg decisions have to be made by the companies and the government over the next few weeks. Lets hope they get it right.

[Reel World Fishing Team]

Politics aside, 2 staggering statistics I have read recently. If GM were to completely fail and not restructure as they are intending to do. This country would lose 5 million jobs. For every 6 jobs lost today there is one house foreclosure. That’s 833,333 more housing foreclosures if GM were to fail. What is that going to do for the economy? Our previous administration is the one who lowered the corporations’ taxes by shipping jobs out of this country. While Toyota and Honda were building plants here, The rest were building plants out of this country.

[trollperchsand?]

Last year GM lost 39.1 Billion Dollars, that is a fact! You don't give money to a company that lost 39.1 Billion Dollars. You make them restructure, to survive. Exec's should have had their pays cut many years ago, the UAW workers at least they are the one's that actually build the cars but the Union should have seen this coming and been part of the solution and not part of the problem. When an uneducated, unskilled laborer is making more than what we pay our teachers, Professors, even more than most small business owners.. ie: over $100k / yr. that is a problem. Yet they just kept this business model for years. Why is it that a 1/2 ton extended cab pickup has to sticker for $35,000, it's silly to think about it. Greed! I have felt for the suppliers for many years, from what I have read they have squeezed them, and squeezed them to the point it wasn't profitable. Then when the suppliers couldn't survive, then GM turned where? South of the Border... Someone mentioned Ronald Regan, can you remember before Regan that the Import Auto makers used to actually have to import their cars? When Regan made it unprofitable by taxing these imports coming into the country what happend? They all came here. Honda is in Ohio, Toyota is in Californina, Kentucky, Texas, Mazda, Nissan, they all build they majority of the cars sold in the US, in the US. I agree with GLF (Mike), they should somehow figure out how to get the US automakers back to building cars only in the United States and get rid of this North American loophole. (Canada & Mexico should not count) Take a look at our unemployment figures. Lets get some of these people back to work at least if we are going to take taxpayers money and knowingly allow it to go North or South. I do believe GM intends to shut down the plant in Canada that they were building some of the Silverados/GMC Sierras, however the shutdown had to do w/ lack of demand. I looked at a new Tundra a couple of weeks ago and it had a sticker on the side window that said US Parts Content 90%, point of assembly was in San Antonio. It's hard to tell anymore what exactly is a domestic and what is and import. Just so you know I didn't buy a truck, and I am hoping that GM, Chrysler, and Ford all make it in this economy, but I'm no longer interested in helping in any other way other than buying one of their vehicles if it is the best thing for my wallet and my family. I would like the government to Quit taking my money and giving it away, I have become quite good at spending it myself since I picked up Salmon fishing as a hobby.

[Priority1]

I feel for all the people effected by any of these closing or slow downs. Our government chooses which companies are allowed to fail, and which ones get loans or bailouts. Why was Lehman Brothers allowed to go down and their investors left holding paper? How many small businesses fail with out any concern from our government? The auto companies like any businesses need to react quicker to economic downturns. The money given to the financials with out any strings is also appalling.

I own a 2008 Silverado and 2004 Impala. I can see a Ford product in my future. I have owned them before. Kudos to Ford for being fiscally responsible. Raspberries to Chrysler and GM for allowing their companies to go down hill, to the point of Bankruptcy. I truly believe GM was more concerned with staying #1 than turning a profit. GM did get rid or Olds, but that should have happened about the same time Chrysler ditched the Desoto. Why does a car company need more than 3 models? Ford tried to add a fourth model to it's lineup, but realized quickly that it was not needed. We have all made plenty of wrong decisions in our lives, but the financial burdens for these mistakes are ours, and not the American taxpayers.

[1mainiac]

Sadly we live in a no responsibility era there are millions to blame for our current situation. But the group most responsible is in Washington They have gotten very little right in a hundred years and could not manage a T ball team. The New Deal was a disaster and had nothing to do with getting us out of the depression you can thank Hitler and Japan for that when Hitler began invading Europe we began selling wepons overseas with gave us a boost and when Japan hit HI we all stood shoulder to shoulder and solved the problem. We bought war bonds and worked 24 hr a day to win the war. The government raised temperary taxes to help the war effort and no one cared the problem was after the war they kept on spending the money so they never ended the temporary taxes. Every time they have a surplus budget they spend it on social programs rather then give it back. The more you spend on social programs the more people become eligible for those programs so you need more money. No one in their right mind would vote for this crap so you need a war or crisis to motivate people to allow you to do stupid things. After Vietnam we had a minor recession which is a natural adjustment coming out of a war economy so we need a crisis poof the Oil embargo in 73 Gas shortages make people mad and they want the government to fix it up go the taxes and then we have plenty of gas what to do with the extra money well Jimmy Carter thinks everyone should have a home. More FHA loans Lower standards for the loans and lower interest rates sounds good but Reagan wins the election and lowers taxes Now everyone has more money and homes are easier to buy instant economy and boom time for nearly 12 years. I won't go into our failed foreign policy during many of these last 60 years cause it is a seperate issue but also part of the problem. Sadly during the Reagan years we spent foolishly and were cheap so we bought mostly foreign product and much of our industry began moving offshore to make a profit. Most business's knew back in the 70's they could never afford the UNION retirement plans esp when their own employee's were buying foreign product. But the UNION was protected by the government because they all vote Democrate as a block period they all pretty much walk in on election day and pull the big D handle. So you get a choice sign a paper you can't afford and go belly up later or go belly up now. Most company execs decided to go with later and take everything they could now and leave the mess to the next generation which would be us by the way. So for the last 20 years we have had little or now domestic product and have been shuffleing the money around knowing sooner or later some one was going to get stuck with the bill. Government needs a big economy to tax us from so they lower interest rates and play money games and we all fell for it we over spent like drunks on shore leave. Even welfare bums could get a fancy house and credit cards and spending was the key to a strong economy. So what is our crisis oh hell we can have dozens of them going at once now we are deversified. Just keep opening the flood gates on money and let people spend it will all work out right. So ok but not every one is getting a nice house in the suburbs so this Chigago Lawyer Named OBAMA and a group called Acorn start sueing banks for not making enough sub prime loans and they win great now anyone with a pulse can get a 200k home loan. Housing costs go thru the roof people are buying and selling homes for record profits and the fake economy is doing gangbusters. Except for the one thing one of these days someone has to actualy pay the bills rather than flip and pass the buck. So what does this cost well every working family in America just picked up a 25,000 dollar mortgage they will have to repay in the form of higher taxes but hey it is interest only and no payments for 3 years in one of them nice easy credit card type deals. So you will have plenty of time to chew it over. And for all them shiney faced kids learning the new government sponsered education which is the most expensive poor education anyone on earth can receive they each picked up about a 35,000 dollar credit card bill but thankfully it is also interest only till they reach working age so I am sure our kids and grand kids won't mind picking up the tab. Now all we gotta do is pass on the estimate 40 trillion dollar entitlement cost over the next 20 years that is not even in a budget on to some one like our great grand kids hey they won't mind. That is roughly where we currently stand if the jerks in Washington stop spending now wanna see what our medical costs will be to have a poor health care system? Lets not forget what Joe Biden said everyone is going to have some skin in this game well here is your skin total for those of us who work for a living. Since OBAMA took office he has spent 288 dollars a day of your money. Since it has been a long time since I made that much a day I want to thank some of you for being willing to chip in the extra for me. Oh yea and he spends 7 days a week so you might need to think about putting in a little OT.

[Rayman96]

I am already irked about the billions, and billions of dollars we are giving the banks, and the million dollar bonuses these companies are giving out.

I also have an issue with the government using U.S. tax payers money to bail out GM.

What has me irked, is that we are giving GM billions of U.S. tax payers dollars to stay afloat, but they are shutting down plants in the U.S. for restructuring.

Since they are using U.S. tax payers money, how come they are not keeping the U.S. plants open, and shutting down the plants in Canada, and other places instead?

You seem to think that no other country has given GM any money. Since the introduction of free trade, we are all in this together. I am all for fare trade, but not free trade. I expressed my feelings to my Government about this, but it fell on deaf ears as usual.

Canada and the United States were together during the days of the Auto Pact. But Free Trade with Mexico and who knows who else is in the works, has brought about unfair trade balance.

While the big3 danced around the world, the world came and conquered their market. It was theirs to lose and they did a good job! The last time I bought a used Toyota, after many big3 purchases, mostly GM and Ford. Now there are 10 Toyota plants in the US and 2 in Canada.

We all can see how poorly the big three have managed their business. Chrysler paid their top man close to 18 m$ last year, for what? A failed business plan, that's what! As Dr. Phil would say..........how's that workin for ya???? It's not!!! Are we the only ones who see this??? If we are, then then nothing will ever change!!!

Personally, I don't believe that anyone should have got a bailout, period!!!!!! I could support pension guarantees, as a retiree deserves fair treatment.

It's still not guaranteed that GM or Chrysler will survive. Although Chrysler is in negotiations with unions and Fiat.

Here is a news link.

http://www.wheels.ca/reviews/article/539756#

I work for a truck maker that made a billion in profit last year and is restructuring due to the downturn. Just too much capacity. The auto sector landscape is about to change forever.

[GLF]

I copied a couple of lines from the link.

Chrysler workers, who earn an average of $35 an hour, will vote on the deal this weekend and the union said it will negotiate similar concessions at GM and Ford in Canada

Chrysler had sought cuts in health-care benefits, shift premiums, life insurance and child care that would trim labour costs by more than $8 an hour. In earlier negotiations, the union has rejected most of those proposals.

I wonder why the BIG 3 are in the situation they are in? A company cannot be profitable operating with expenses like this. The government sees this, and this is why they are ready to let them file bankruptcy.

I work for the worlds largest manufacturer of over the counter store brand pharmaceuticals. The average pay here is $20 less an hour than this. We do not have a pension plan. We do have a 401K and the company will match up to 3% of our contributions.

My wife and I looked into getting a new Chevy Tahoe last fall. After seeing the price tag, we opted against getting it. It was more than what I paid for my first house in 1995.

[Priority1]

I copied a couple of lines from the link. I wonder why the BIG 3 are in the situation they are in?

Mike, you are not alone in lumping the three automakers together. Ford has not asked for or received any federal loans. Ford still seems to be effected by what is happening with GM and Chrysler. I think what has helped Ford is the fact that their is still family running the business. When your name is on something, your attitude changes. Ford has taken steps to get profitable. Ford doesn't want the Government into their business. Ford lost money this last quarter but beat the analyst by almost 50 cents a share. Another thing that has helped F, is they are getting breaks because of the concessions being granted by workers at GM and Chrysler.

My money is where my mouth is. I guess this is why I get defensive when Ford is lumped with GM and Chrysler. I move my Roth IRA out of a mutual fund account, into a self directed Roth IRA. My IRAs were about half of what they once were. I bought some Ford @ $1.75 and recently sold most of it. I also bought some other Michigan Stocks like Dow. I spread my buys over 6 0r 7 dividend paying companies. Ford was my only buy that did not pay a dividend. Overall I'm up 80+% in less than 2 months. I still need to recoup some to be back where I was, but Ford, GE, and Dow are big reasons why my pension is a little more secure than it was two months ago. I'm still in the game so this could evaporate, but acting bold while others cower is the way to win. Of course acting bold could backfire. Taking control of my finances has put me slightly behind my other Spring Chores. At least I can afford to run Priority1 one more season.

[1mainiac]

Lets not forget the old saying that Nero Fiddled while Rome burned. Our country has been thru this and worse many times the differance is how we choose to deal with it. Following the Market crash in 29 they elected a socailist progressive Rooseveldt who sought a massive government as the answer and lots of public works projects which if not for Hitler and WWII would have all failed. You can't spend your way out of a spending problem. There was a small recession after WWII but Korea and the cold war smoothed it out quickly. When Kennedy was elected we also were having a tough time but he was a conservitive Democrate and lowered taxes this got the economy moving as people spent the extra money and since back then nearly everything we bought was American industry grew as well and the tax base increased giving the government more money which they spent as fast as they could get it on Johnson's Great Soceity plans of a new world but they spent too much and made millions more dependant on a government check to survive so we went right back into a recession in the mid 70's with the poor screaming for help Carter began his everyone gets a home plan and rasied taxes to do it and cut our Military to shreads in the process. His world policy and changes got us the IRAN issue I won't go into that everyone old enough to remember saw how field dressing the Military helped in that endeavor. Reagan gets elected he looks back and sees that what Kennedy did worked minus the Johnson Great Soceity and lowers taxs rebuilds the military and starts to reduce government. The economy booms and money flows. This time however we don't buy American product so while the economy grows our industry shrinks. Since we won't buy any American made product more and more companies move offshore to compete and we go from a productive nation to a bunch of paper chasers and dreamers. Clinton takes over and wants a big government and control of everything He sees a day when everything and everyone will be part of the government they can't get the health care passed so they play with Carters housing ideas since they won't lower taxes they lower interest rates and begin to allow anyone to purchase a home. We print more money and we borrow from everyone they are junkies they no longer even care where the money they spend is from as long as they get to spend it. Bush II gets elected he has a plan to reduce Government but we get attacked and he switchs gears to defense mode and pays little attention to our domestic issues and as long as Congress and the Senate let him fight his war he lets them spend what they want so much for reduceing the deficit. With a constantly increasing government budget we have to create new ways to make the economy grow even if it is fake growth they can still tax it and spend it. We borrow billions and billions and send out checks to every one to boost the economy and nearly all of this money is spent on foreign product How nice for China they loan us money which we use to buy stuff from them and we still owe them the money. Obama promises to cut the deficit in half by the end of his first term but did not mention his plan to quadruple it in his first 100 days. So even if he cuts it back by the end of this term it will still more than double.

Lets look at it this way you got carried away and spent too much all your credit is maxed out. Do you sit down make some hard choices and find a way to balance your budget and ride out the problem? Or do you go out and get credit cards for all your kids and go to the casino and max them out trying to get lucky and win back enough come out ahead? Obama Chose plan B and spent all of our kids and grandkids money in 100 days. And because it was done so fast they will blame it all on Bush. Sorry I blame Bush for a lot mostly for being asleep at the switch on domestic policy but he gave us a safe place to sleep. All of us wasted money none of us saved for a rainy day ( it is raining now). While I would have no problem going and hanging most of our elected officals for acts of treason and distroying America what to we do with the millions who vote them in year after year. To hell with the election process it is so screwed up you can't trust it nor can you trust anyone elected cause they all have great speechs and intentions to start with. Untill we learn to live withen our means and save for the future we will have none. Vote with your wallet buy American if you can't afford it save for it if you really don't need it don't buy it. No matter what the next few years are going to suck what happens after that is up to us. Defend the constitution throw everyone one out of office get rid of their pensions and benifits make serveing your country a duty not a royal job.

[Rayman96]

{Chrysler workers, who earn an average of $35 an hour, will vote on the deal this weekend and the union said it will negotiate similar concessions at GM and Ford in Canada.}

Obviously this was negotiated during better times. The dollar figure is a Canadian dollar that is at about 80 cents US.

Personal income tax rate is over 25% and does not include Canada Pension Plan or Employment Insurance deductions.

Fuel prices last year were at over $1.20 a liter. Currently at about $.080 a liter or about $3.00 a US gallon.

Goods and Services Tax is at 5%.

Provincial Sales Tax is at 8%.

These two taxes are about to be combined into one tax from which nothing will escape!

All this to supposedly provide universal health care. If you can find a doctor to take you in.

Don't even get me started on property taxes.

[Boltman]

Wow this is really getting lengthy isn't it.....and to think not one of us can control it but are all affected by it.... there's so food for thougt.

[1mainiac]

The real key is to remember how to live withen your means and still have some savings. Even though I spent way too much money fishing last year I was still able to continue to save money. And the result of saving money every year has allowed me to be out of work now for 6 months and still survive when my unemployment check will barely cover my mortgage. We have cut back and spent wisely but still live just fine however the number of months I can continue to do this is very few so I was glad to get called back to work next week even if it may only be a short while back on payroll it will give me time to try and build back a fishing budget. I have only bought Ford vehicles for decades and was glad to see them pass on the bailout money. Every one of us needs to pay attention as to where we spend and what we buy. Make every dollar count think about what matters to you personally and act accordingly. I seldom shop at Walmart Meijers is closer and MI based so I figure a few more of my dollars will stay here. I study up on domestic content and take into consideration local business's they hire my family friends and neighbors so they get my business first. The only things I purchase online are things I cannot get locally next to nothing. I never shop at the Mall's I will not enter a Target store at gunpoint and there are a lot more on that list but Target has been a personal one for me. While our government needs us to spend like mad it is only because doing that will increase their revenue not ours. Untill the current administration STIMULUS meant giving us more to spend which would cause economic growth. Now it means letting them spend more and hoping some of it gets spent in a way that might be helpfull to us. But rest assured weather or not any of us ever see the STIMULUS money all of us will see the bill to pay it back. With the Cap and Trade plan everyone will see higher costs on everything no exceptions everyone will pay. The idea it will only effect the rich is so dumb I can't beleive anyone will still fall for it. Does anyone really beleive that your boss will just suck it up and pay more or will he be forced to make more payroll cuts and trim his budget. Or can he just increase the profit by raising prices perhaps the utility companies can but everyone else is competeing with China which means they can't raise prices so cuts will have to be made. The cost of doing business here while competeing against China and other countries is what drove most of our industry away to begin with now we will run off what little is left.

[Rayman96]

AMEN BROTHER, you are right on the money! We all will pay for this fiasco for a long time. My investments have taken a real beating lately and hope they recover before I really need them! In 8 years I will be 65 and hope to retire! This may not be possible! God willing, I will be in good enough health to continue working!

Fishing and the outdoors are the only pleasures that mean anything to me these days. I haven't had a garden for a number of years but this year I'm going to start again. The benefits outway time involved and may save a few dollars. If nothing else, I'll know what is in my vegetables! Not so sure that I can trust imports!!!

Also for the first time in 20 plus years I'm on a layoff list. List includes the whole plant and may be for some time due to restructuring due to overcapacity. Again Mexico is involved.

Will post updates as more info comes to light.