Extremely HOT Topic

[Adjusted3]

I sent a request to Dr. Sutton for some direction on this subject. I will let you know the results.

in the meantime, here is some reading material.

The first article is a very great article on the art of catch and release, no-no's and a few factors that IF you are releasing fish, what not to do.

http://www.nesportsman.com/articles/article59.shtml

The next is a PDF file on mortality on Coho using various catch techniques but in a "controled enviroment"

http://www-ops.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm/selective/pdfs/final_e.pdf

The 3rd is a study on c/r mortality on Shad and Striped Bass. Additionally there are cites in the study for further reading.

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dfwmr/marine/hudson/final.pdf

Just some more to add to the discussion.

Mark

[Spawnwalker]

I just got off of the phone with Trent. He will be getting back to us in a couple of days. He will be trying to get some info. from some different people. But he is very busy with the end the of semester tasks.

[Butch]

Treblemaker, you raise some good questions.

The charter captains are out there every day, but they don't release the fish they catch on charter trips. Quite the opposite, they keep every legal fish and they "get to" go in as soon as they have a limit. So I'm not sure that their observations and theories are more valuable than all the studies that show that the majority of released fish survive. Of course, I appreciate that they are concerned about the resource and that they are trying to fix an apparent problem at some tournaments.

You also asked a question at the heart of the matter: why release a legal fish, since there is always some chance that it will die anyway and be "wasted"? I'll give you my perspective as someone that routinely releases salmon on Lake Michigan. Basically, I like to fish a lot. And I have the opportunity to fish a lot. Because of these 2 factors, I catch far more salmon than I want to keep and feed to my family or give away to friends. But, it's legal to catch and release so I fish for the enjoyment even though I don't need any more fish to feed my family right then. For the most part, I fish without regard to the limit, in the sense that I may release all my healthy-looking fish starting with the first one, or more often I may keep 1 for a meal then start releasing them, and I will fish as long as I feel like it(or have time available), whether or not I've caught less than my limit or my limit or more than my limit. Catching my "limit" is not a priority to me, and I will rarely keep fishing longer just to catch that last fish to fill my limit. I fish when I feel like it, often midday "banker's hours" even though the fishing is usually slower. I often fish solo, or I take a kid or a friend fishing but I don't take a bigger crew when the fish are biting good just so we can catch and kill more.

So, basically I am willing to fish when I don't want to keep the next fish just because I enjoy the sport(and it's legal). This, even though based on the body of science out there, I ackowledge that at least 5% and more likely at least 10% of the fish I release probably will die, or more under warm-water conditions. This is a trade-off I'm willing to accept. Some people don't agree with this trade-off, and some seem to even consider this unethical. However, if I kept all my legal fish, the fish population would be reduced, especially if it was my goal to keep my limit every day. And, is one more extra bag of fish in my freezer ethically superior to a released fish that probably will (but may not) survive? Not in my book.

On a different issue, thanks to Crawdaddy for the links. Reading about the c&r tips reminded me that it's easy to release fish that WILL DIE if someone doesn't know how to give the fish it's best chance to survive, or if they just don't care. Some opinions that "released fish will die anyway" are probably based on observations of fish that were handled and tossed back carelessly.

[Treblemaker]

Here is another link to a current study that shows a low mortality, but again not with trolled fish, but fish caught on a fly.

http://www.acuteangling.com/Reference/C&RMortality.html

To each his/her own as long as they fish legally and within their limits there should be no issue, just opinions.

[Adjusted3]

I just received an e-mail from Dr. Sutton.

He indicated that he will do some searches for us and get back in a couple of days. I will keep you informed. He does have studies on Bass, walleye & pike and will do some searches on Salmoniods.

Butch hit the nail in my opinion in the end of his post. Care of a fish that is to be released is so improtant. The studies that I referenced was that a fish that is released bleeding has a very high mortality, as a fish that is out of the water for more than a min. Scale loss or damages has an adverse affect as well. Dragging a fish on the line for 1/2 hour, come on folks, be have all been there, has an adverse effect. Remember, these studies were controled, the fish was not removed from the water and was not netted. We do all these things. Washington has a fishery rule for slamon that it is ileagle to release one that has been brought inside the gunnels of a boat.

At least we are getting closer to Jims original post so that he can make an imformed decision to his questions.

Mark

[HitMan]

The problem I have with releasing Salmon is the tactics and techniques taken to release the salmon. I know of many people that take care of the fish and make sure they are put back in the Lake approriately. But, many people also handle them, net them, take a picture, etc., and then toss them back in, not being gentle to make sure the fish is healthy and will swim away, instead just tossing it in. The biggest problem I have found is the way people release Salmon, especially while trolling. It is a lot different in Lake Michigan, while trolling, than say fishing for Salmon in the river.

If we are catching a lot of fish, very quickly, we do release a lot of fish. Any fish that I can lift up, without netting and losing our tackle, we do release with the pliers instantly.

Anyways, the thing I have seen over the years, is that Salmon are the most fragile fish caught on the Great Lakes. Lake Trout are easier to release, as most other trout are as well. But, the biggest thing I have to say, is the technique and procedure taken by many when releasing fish back into the Lake. That is the problem overall with releasing Salmon.

[Sixshooter]

I'm in agreement with Hit Man on this one. These guys are on the water daily and see first hand what can happen over a much larger scale than us part timers. I have also heard from the many captains who expressed their sickening of these tournament practices and have lobbied for change for the good of the fish and fishery.

I have released many fish and they mostly seem to swim away and some have floated. If it is a legal fish why not keep it? When money and egos are on the line mainly, unless we are just fishing for fun not to keep anything. But all would agree that at least some of these fish will not make it. It comes down to an ethical debate in the end, mainly dependant on whether one thinks the fish will "make it". If we knew they would die would we release many? Or throw back dead ones to upgrade to a nicer fish? I don't think so.

Even our DNR plays devils advocate by the 3/2 limits they set. By only allowing 3 kings or fish of any species you must continue to fish to catch a full DNR limit. Many times the kings or coho are prevalent and even after switching programs for other species these species will be caught and released in pursuit of a full limit.

With that Thought though Timmy...Why do you catch and release those huge walleyes you do? Are you positive those fish survive when you release them?

[Take Six...]

People debating with facts! What a refreshing read. Too bad the networks won't do this. Just thought I would throw this out since I haven't heard anyone mention it.

Last January/ February I attended a Steelheaders meeting in Mishawaka. The captain from Fish Hawk Charters out of St. Joe was the guest speaker. After an interesting discussion of techniques both on the big lake and in the river he had a question and answer session. I asked this question. At least once a year I charter a trip somewhere on the ocean. I primarily target bill fish, tarpon and bone. Every saltwater captain I've chartered with, always spoke of not killing any fish and always released what was caught. This was their fishery and their livelyhood and it was up to them to be good stewards. I asked the Fish Hawk captain if he did the same. He said in Lake Michigan, since we have such an extensive stocking system, that it wasn't necessary to release fish due to concerns over population. There were follow up comments from other guys in the room that supported his comment.

[Butch]

I reread some of the things I wrote on this thread and it could be appear that I was too harsh, or that I was specifically unhappy with an individual poster or two. That was not my intent. My comments about some opinions of others were intended as general references to things I've heard and read elsewhere, I've got no axe to grind with any of you. In fact I find good points in all of the posts I've read on this thread, and in many cases you expressed things better than I did.

I think the salmon are there to be caught, and kept to the extent allowed by law(apparently especially in Lake Michigan these days). I don't care if people catch and kill their limit of salmon every day, if they have a use for them. I don't care if they keep fish because they don't want to release fish knowing that some of the released fish may die anyway. I'm only frustrated when I hear that "it's unethical to release them because they won't survive anyway". This is factually wrong, and it amounts to calling ME unethical, because I release some. I resent being called "unethical".

As an aside, I've met a few people over the years that have said it's ethically wrong to release fish, except when they are in a tournament and money is at stake. This is like nails on a chalkboard to me-keep them or let them go, I don't care, but please don't call me "unethical". Again, this isn't directed at anyone here, just a general rant.

[Sixshooter]

Well Said Matt.

I'm in the same "boat" to say. I don't intend to ruffle any feathers and I don't have any axes to grind either. But I'm just interested in the topic because of what Matt has mentioned earlier. Being labeled as Unethical because I sometimes practice catch and release, and yet the same people saying the fish will die no matter what will just toss fish for money.

There is a fine line and I think we have opened a great discussion. We have a lot of members invovled in so far a civalized debate.

That is great to see.

And plus playing devils advocate sometimes is fun...If nothing else it makes everybody just think about this stuff...and perhaps if you were or are one of the anglers that fell strongly the fish will die no matter what may look at the research and look at it differently.

Or on the flip side. Perhaps there will be research somewhere stating that the fish WILL die...But I think salmon are hardier than what we give them credit for. I mean they enter the river and do not eat for weeks at a time....swimming through shallow water, rocks, trees, jumping waterfalls and dams. Getting attacked by birds, bears, and all sorts of other things yet they survive to drive up that river in 80 degree water and spawn.

That has to say something to the fishes ability to survive.

[Treblemaker]

Good point Jim, but it's really apples and oranges there. Trolling in a boat 2.5 mph plus and dragging the fish from the cold through warmer water at times, and sometimes from the depths has to be hard on the fish, especially if the fight lasts a while. With the eyes we are trolling with rod in hand mostly less than 1 mph and we stop when we get a fish. The water temps are always below 50 degrees and we unhook, sometimes take a quick pic, then let them go to spawn. We really have no desire to eat them when they are that old and they have always swam away to the depths.

As I said I release fish all of the time. All shakers, big lakers, big browns get returned to the water unless I fish a tourney and they are legal. In fact I have released many fish just so we could keep fishing. I do feel bad when we see them float, but the times we have turned around to scoop them up they always swim away before we can get to them. Do they make it? I don't know nor pretend to. But I do know that uh oh feeling when one goes belly up and I call that my concience and have to question the ethics behind my decision to let them go. This does not mean I question anyone elses either.

[Adjusted3]

Well,

I got a bunch of info from Dr. Sutton. Let me dissiminate it over the next few days.

Here is what my personal thoughts are---

If you drag the fish for a 1/2 hour, you know those 12" fish that are water logged, box it.

If you bring it in the boat and it is bleading, box it.

If it is a prolonged fight---I.E. 20-40 mins, Box it

If you are confident that the fish will make it, boatside release it.

If you know that it is a laker and it is out of season or you don't want to keep it, tighten the drag and winch it in and release it. Interesting but Lakers are one of the few that are not subject to being pulled from the depths. they have a totally different set of lungs on them that is not suseptible to being pulled from the depths. I can send the cites but suffice to say that the info was in Dr. Suttons info.

I guess the end result is that we as fisherman, never want to "float" fish. It happens on occaision, for out of season, maxed limits or otherwise. Lets give them every chance we can give them

Mark