Renewable energy prop could divide communities targeted for wind farms

[News]

To achieve the Proposal 3 goal of 5,000 MW of renewable electricity generation mainly with wind energy would require installing between 2,000 and 3,100 wind turbines, according to supporters of Proposal 3 and industry officials--some communities are not thrilled with this prospect.

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[1mainiac]

Anyone know the reason wind farms are really not popular? It has nothing to do with the way they look it is because they cost more then they produce so it has to be government mandated. Voting in favor of this bill is voting to raise your electricity bills by 100 to 300% It also will not remove a single current plant because they can add or reduce power on demand unlike wind which has no no real control. The cost to power my 1500sq ft home with wind was est at 280,000 dollars with a annual maintenance of nearly 2 grand to get me free of a electric bill that averaged under a 100 a month. Around 30 grand would put a natural gas generator on my place which would run the house and let me sell power back however the gas bill would run as high as 500 or more per month and it would need a oil change every 2 weeks so the suggestion was that I put in 2 of them. I am all for new energy sources but wind energy is not new it has been used for thousands of years. What it is not is cheap or dependable we have however thousands of miles of rivers which can power much of the state and do it without dams. I have a design I came up with over 30 years ago which costs very little to build and actually works on any flowing stream with little to no change in stream flow.

[danthebuilder]

Jim,

If you think its going to increase your electric bill by 100-300% you're misinformed. It will force the electric companies to not increase their rate by more than 1% a year. If they cannot meet the 25% mandate by 2025 due to the price. The deadline will be automatically extended.

I live within 7 miles of a nuclear plant & a gas plant. I am very upset at the nuclear plant. Not because I don't want it. I want them to install a new reactor a few hundred feet next to the old one. The one we got is old. Its not going to last forever. Its time to break ground! It takes a long time to build. With wind power we are definitely going to need nuclear for baseline power. I think its silly to not build up a wind turbines to be used when the wind blows. Why burn natural gas and coal if we don't have to?

We have a 100 year supply of natural gas. There is no harm if we use it less so it turns into a 500 year supply. Personally, I'm not the biggest fan of coal. I have family members that suffer due to asthma. If we burn it only on days when the wind doesn't blow. That's better than what we're doing now. As long as the mandate is only 25%. I'm cool. They try moving it to 100% or 50%. I'm gonna say "lets get realistic". I think overall this is a step in the right direction.

Anyways, This is how the proposal will look on the ballot. Notice the 2nd and 3rd line.

PROPOSAL 12-3

A PROPOSAL TO AMEND THE STATE CONSTITUTION TO ESTABLISH A STANDARD FOR RENEWABLE ENERGY

This proposal would:

Require electric utilities to provide at least 25% of their annual retail sales of electricity from renewable energy sources, which are wind, solar, biomass, and hydropower, by 2025.

Limit to not more than 1% per year electric utility rate increases charged to consumers only to achieve compliance with the renewable energy standard.

Allow annual extensions of the deadline to meet the 25% standard in order to prevent rate increases over the 1% limit.

Require the legislature to enact additional laws to encourage the use of Michigan made equipment and employment of Michigan residents.

Should this proposal be approved?

YES __

NO ____

[1mainiac]

My point is simple if you limit the cost increase to 1% a year who pays for all the windmills? The Ontario wind farm has never been at 96% for more than a few hours and averages under 20% production. That means we actually have to build 5 times as much as they propose to actually produce the power. The wholesale cost of wind energy is over 3 times the cost of coal energy who is going to make up the difference? Who is going to clean up the mess thousands of rusted out towers will leave in 20 years? The real truth is if it was a profitable alternative companies would be all over it. The fact that the only ones all over it is liberal government officials and special interest groups should concern us all. Hope and Change don't feed the Bulldog the equipment will cost money and the power it produces won't pay for it without government subsidies ie more of your and my tax dollars wasted. Even with subsidies the Ontario wind project output cost is close 13 cents per KW wholesale compared to our cost of under 5 cents per KW who pays the difference? It is nice to write stuff on paper but the fact is it is not cost viable and just like Obama said prices will have to go up. He said you can still use coal you will just go bankrupt doing it with his plans because of penalties.

[danthebuilder]

You shouldn't turn this into an Obama issue. Iowa who is #2 in installed wind turbines told Romney that he better support the 2.2 cents a KWH subsidy if he expected to have a chance at competing in the state.

But you're saying I should accept numbers from an enbridge owned wind farm and use them for what will happen everywhere else? Even though everyone else seems to have their act together a lot better and are closing approaching the 5 cents a KWH

I should say its acceptable the level of mercury in our fish and any less wouldn't be any better?

I'm to ignore that you're not factoring in the 2,000 deaths a year in the united states from coal pollution? I'm to ignore that you aren't factoring the healthcare costs?

I'm to say no to thousands of jobs?

oh and i should be scared that it should take a crane and a small crew half a day to drop a wind turbine to the ground. and once it hits the ground it'll be worth quite a bit of money in scrap?

oh and btw, coal doesn't costs 5 cents a KWH until you paid for the plant. You want to compare what wind costs after the turbine is paid for to 5 cents a kwh? Wind is gonna win.

[1mainiac]

Have you been to the canyons in CA and seen the abandoned wind turbines? I am simply looking at the facts we are bankrupt and the money we are spending is our grand kids not ours. On top of the fact they take up a ton of space and look like crap they are just not a effective plan. Like it or not it is a Obama type issue because those who believe like him it is better for us will shove it down our throats. The fact is in this state we have rivers the money wasted on making the wind turn those turbines now and then would be better by driving them from water flow and doing it without wrecking the rivers and it can be done. I for one want to leave my kids and grand kids with a bright future not 200 trillion in debt. Someone has to learn to say no we can't afford that today because we are broke. Do you borrow 30% of your annual living expenses every year?

As for the Iowa comment there you go another group telling the rest of the country to pay part of their bills. It all works as long as you can get someone else to pick up part of the check. Most of the numbers I have seen tell me the wind turbines will never pay for themselves until electricity hits 20 cents a KW.

[Line Dancin]

Im not totally sold on them. After talking to a few different people that work with them i dont think we have the wind needed to produce the energy they are claiming.Two in particular told me how they wrok. I was told by two different people in two different area, 1 in ludington, 1 that was staying at sterling state park and installed the turbines in canada. You need a sustained 25 mile an hour wind to produce 90%. The ones in lake erie produce approx 60 percent When there is wind. This is sustained wind not gusts. we dont have sustained winds of 25 mph here for any period of time. I am going on the guys that work on them not by the two sides arguing over whether we should put them in or not. I dont know if this is completly true but two different people saying similar things makes me wonder. When we fish erie i was down there only one day when we were near the border where all of them were turning and we really shouldnt have been fishing. Otherwise most of them sit still most of the time. I just cant see where all the energy is supposed to come from when these things sit still most of the time.

[1mainiac]

http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/marketdata/windpower.asp that is the link to the Ontario wind power page on this page is a Hourly wind generator report which goes hour by hour back to 2006 when the first part of the system was put on line. it is rated for 1500MW It ran at rated capacity a total of 59 hours this year and only was above 90% 369 hours in the last 2 years. As I write this it is at 375MW or 25% Here is Oct 16th 2012 hour by hour.

16-Oct-12 1 378

16-Oct-12 2 341

16-Oct-12 3 331

16-Oct-12 4 354

16-Oct-12 5 295

16-Oct-12 6 237

16-Oct-12 7 247

16-Oct-12 8 229

16-Oct-12 9 162

16-Oct-12 10 160

16-Oct-12 11 194

16-Oct-12 12 199

16-Oct-12 13 205

16-Oct-12 14 254

16-Oct-12 15 270

16-Oct-12 16 324

16-Oct-12 17 351

16-Oct-12 18 263

16-Oct-12 19 330

16-Oct-12 20 493

16-Oct-12 21 672

16-Oct-12 22 701

16-Oct-12 23 597

16-Oct-12 24 748

Managed to hit 50% at midnight what hours did you say you wanted electricity?

[EdB]

Wind power is very innefficient. This proposal is not good policy. It will drive up energy costs. Not good in the current economy. I'm not opposed to wind power as long as it is competitive in the free market. If it were, power companies would be racing to build them. I'd much rather see more nuke plants built to provide cost effective and reliable power. Can't do that due to government regulations. Let the free market work and keep the government and it's regulations out of it.

[1mainiac]

I am all for better energy but don't blow smoke up my butt trying to tell me it is free. Most of the turbines will not remain in operation long enough to pay for themselves let alone provide free power. The only ones that will show a profit is the companies that build and sell them. And the only ones dumb enough to pay for it is our government and they are broke and borrowing money from my grand kids.