1mainiac

I have seen several good reports on them out of my price range esp since I have not ice fished in over 20 years. I hope to do a bit of it this winter since we should have a good ice season but still cant afford that. I have a small handheld that does a decent job and also a Hummingbird portable so will be using those.

Frank I have not had a landline since 98 been on Verizon very few dead zones.

Well let me clear some of this up nearly all of my glow spoons are magnum spoons. Untill this year I never bought any glow spoons in smaller sizes. As such my glow program has always been big spoons plugs and flasher fly combos. This year I bought a few of the Nitro spoons and some other smaller glow spoons and they worked well. But if I am dropping lines at 4:30 am the first thing down will most likely be magnum Moonshines as my dark approach is big and bright so to speak. Next approach will be dipsey's with either glow flashers and flies or small glow spoons. Since I often fish with just my wife that is our 6 rod setup in the dark. If there are more people in the boat I have room to make changes if not as the sun comes up I pull 2 riggers and put out a core program that most of the time was 2 5 color setups targeting Steelhead and Coho since they taste better. The only times I had enough people in the boat to run the 12 rod setup was during the tournaments with 6 rod limits. So carring 18 rods is kinda overkill as I hardly ever used my copper setup or my wire divers. Except for the 19 lb king I caught and the one my wife caught all of our big fish came on magnum spoons this year. So I pretty much always have a big spoon or 2 down. The night I was talking about we had 10 rods out coming in in the dark 4 mag glows on the riggers 2 flasher fly combos on divers and 4 small spoons on the core setups we never had a fish touch the big spoons all night we got 3 fish on flies and the 3 I dragged on the core setups for a bonus. But as a general rule I think the mag glows do better in darkness maybe just cause I fish them more in the dark.

Very true Frank it is why the flies work and I always go to smaller plugs and spoons as the sun comes up. A small Black Raspberry and a couple of the Nitro spoons were my go to lures as cond changed in the early morn. Big and glowing were my plan for darkness but as we approach sunup I would begin to switch out to the Nitro's and flies. As soon as I can see well enough the core program goes out usually with small spoons. And the flies go out as well. My evening program is just reversed I start with small stuff and flies and add bigger glows as it gets dark. The big dif is if I have room around me I will leave the cores out in the dark even though I can't see them very well because they will still catch fish and I would rather reel them in with a fish on them. One evening we were in 100 fow and only had 2 fish in the box when we decided to call it a night. But rather then pull lines and run in I decided to just troll in behind the Ferry so we agreed to pull lines at 60 ft and pointed to the lights picked up a nice King in 70 ft about 7 lbs and did not reset the rod as we were close to 60 ft when we neted it so I figured we had our mercy fish and began to pull lines. Three of our 4 core poles had fish on them nothing big but all legal fish 2 small Steelhead and a 3 lb King. All on small spoons from my daylight setup a few hours ago. We set lines at 7:30 it was now coming up 11 and we had 6 nice fish 2 on flies the rest on small spoons. Big spoons and plugs never took a bump the biggest fish in the box was about 8 lbs and the small Steelhead were between 2 and 3 lbs.

I tend to agree Frank the last couple years I always ran a meat rig in nearly every spread and my fish per trip rate was much better. I talked to a friend who is a charter captain on lake O who was one of the primary field testers for Rhys Davis. He told me he no longer ran the cut bait anymore that it was too costly and no more effective than flasher fly combos. He gave me several pointers on how to improve my fly setup and they worked. I ran the boat Herring impaired all season and did ok had a couple bad days and a few great days and the boat smelled better than last season. I did actually break out some Herring on a few bad trips and it did not seem to change much and did not catch a single fish on meat this year. But will point out I almost never ran it probably under 4 hours of trolling time out of over 200 hours of trolling this summer. Versus having meat running nearly all the time last year and the 200 bucks or so I saved on strips got spent on other things anyhow like the extra cost of gas. I tried several spray scents on my fly program and most of them worked so maybe dropping the Herring is less of a factor than the major change I made due to high fuel cost. Since I live close to the lake it was easier for me to try and only fish peak times so I would make a plan for the morn and go fish it but if it worked or not I generally pulled lines and headed in when I completed the plan. Most of my trips were under 3 hours start to finish and I ended with a less than 5% skunk rate. I know several guys who fished less then me and got skunked more times so that is not all that bad. So other than the Tournaments and a couple other times I stuck with the program all year. On the days I pounded the fish I never ran any scent program even in past years I never ran meat during peak fishing it has always been a go to when the bite slowed and in daylight to try and bring in a few more fish. Since I did not fish this scenario much this summer I am not the best judge however I really think in years past it was a big help to have meat rigs going. If gas prices next year are like they were this year my program will take even more reductions unless I win the lottery.

Verizon works everywhere I fish this year. I think it attracts fish as it never seems to fail one of my buddies will call to see how things are going and a rod will go off. My brother had Nextel for years traveled all over the midwest and south as a salesman. Said it works great as long as you follow a major highway but once you take a exit ramp you are on your own.

Salmon primarily eat Alewives which in various light cond appear in many colors. As such I have long beleived that color selection was fairly low on my list of go to things. My goal has always been to run as many setups as possible and vary my spped and depth within a given temp range. Some days they will seem to pick a color and pattern and only hit that, when I see that I like to put more of them down. Other days they will grab one setup then another and so on so there is no way to pattern them as the seem to be just grabbing whatever is closet to them. Then there are days when they hit the entire spread all at once. On a 8 rod setup mixed with spoons plugs and flies 3 of us landed 7 Kings in 45 min. There was no time to reset anything just try and see who could get theirs in fastest so they could grab one of the other rods that was banging. So for my nearly 40 years out there fishing between Holland and Frankfort I don't have a single must fish this setup. I have dozens of setups that all work and depending on light cond and water temp and depth seem to dominate certain cond. Copper colors to me seem to work best in mid light cond overcast days right after sunup or right at sundown. In dark I like chrome and glow's maximize flash and visability. Bright clear days I go with blues and greens. But if I have 3 or 4 people on the boat I will run any and or all of the combinations.

Ok but just for the record we have fished together 3 times and had a great time all 3 but you ended the first in the ER and the last with a broken pole. So get a rabbits foot or something or at I hope you have used up your bad luck for the year.

As a former ice fishing lunatic may I suggest a setup I used to use for early and late ice fishing. First Snowshoes help a lot even cross country skis are better than plain boots. Second I had one of those plastic barrell's with a removable lid that I kept my stuff in with a rope attached to it. When I moved around on the ice it was tied to me and I would drag it behind me. It did several things it carried all my gear and left my hands free it moved on the ice and snow fairly easy and if I went thru it gave me a huge bobber and anchor to get back out. I guess it would have also made finding my body easier if all else failed. It has been over 20 years since I ice fished living down south for a bunch of the time so no ice to consider and warmer winter when up here made me stop going. I am starting to get the bug to do it again but be carefull.

Tight Lines

Jim

nick here is a site that will help with the knots.

http://www.animatedknots.com/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

Palomar, Uni, Dbl Uni, Albright, Worlds Fair are pretty much my go to knots. I snell my fly rigs and most of setups I tie my self. I build most of my own stuff for Flies and meat rigs with Gamma Flouro leader and Owner hooks I even make a lot of my J Plug harness's. So over the years I have become a knot fananitic But I can tie some sweet knots most of my Snell's look as good as machine made and are built with bettter material.

Tight Lines

Jim

Boltman keep in mind the list of things that can improve your fishing is endless as are lure choices. If you upload pics of your boat and info on it along with some ideas as to where and when you will fish the guys here can help you narrow down what you need. Many of us in here have been doing this for decades as such there is pretty much a agreed list of things you should have. However other than being fishing nuts we don't all agree on how or what works best. Ask any 10 of us what our pre dawn go to setup is in early July and you will likey get 10 differant setups that all work. But in those 10 differant setups you will find a similar pattern in all of them. Glow spoons, Flasher Fly combos, the kind of water we want to fish in ect... We all have developed patterns that work for us and our boats. Many times I leave the dock with a plan and by the time I am out where I plan on fishing cond have changed so the plan has to change.

So perhaps you should post info on your boat and where you want to fish then filter thru the list of responses and see what you need to have. Also chk out the charter boats that fish in the area you want and see what their equipment list is. This will help you narrow down the list.

Tight Lines

Jim

Oh and one other line I have been looking at is the Musky master it is a hollow braid like lead core. I use it for loop connectors on some of my fly fishing setups.

Thanks still got a while till I need to respool them I know they all have Pros and Cons I lost some gear 2 years ago working out my Power Pro program. When you lose a few dipey setups learning it is not cheap I lost several setups before a friend pointed out that using a Trilene knot was causing the braid to cut itself as it tightened. I have played around with the Worlds fair knot the Uni and the Palomar since and have pretty much stuck with the Palomar. Now just gotta keep my friends from free spooling them out and my dipsey program works great. Keep them suggestions coming need input data.

Tight Lines

Jim

I think I am going to change out the Power Pro on my diver rods as it is a couple seasons old. Do you guys really think the Fireline is better in 30lb, once I changed knots I have had no issues with Power Pro? I started with 300 yds of Power Pro on each rod and with cutting it back and retieing for 2 years am not sure how much is left. So while the Power Pro discussion is going I will throw this out and add the man's prayer I am a man but I can change if I have to I guess.

What is the best 30 lb braid for a dipsey rod? Pro's and Con's.

I have a habit of once something works for me I stop changing it so I worked out the issues with Power Pro a couple years ago. But I know a lot of guys use the Fireline is there much of a difference or is it just user preference?

My Big Jons are older Senior models with new Speed Rigger motors making them some where between Speed Rigger and Brute models I have had 25 lb balls on them and they don't slow down. My fishlanders on the other hand have smaller motors and are much slower but they run 15lb balls just fine. The Big Jons have 50 amp motors and will put the ball down a 100 feet in seconds and if you are thumbing the spool on your reel it will be smoking. The Fishlanders only draw about 7 amps and go up and down nice and slow. But make sure your battery system can keep up with the units cause a dead battery makes them all manual down riggers. The charging system on my old outboard could not keep up with the Big Jons and the never worked well. So I had them rebuilt before putting them on my new boat this year. When the tech at Big Jon got them he called me to verify what was wrong he explained the amp draw to me and offered me the motor upgrade for the same price as the rebuilds. Very Cool people to deal with.

Kinda what I was thinking Nick I have 4 rigger poles to re line this year as 3 seasons is enough on the line. Since I have the big spool of 14 lb I figured I would save a few bucks and run it I always used to run 14 early and 25 late in the season. But the last 2 years I just left the line on I think I did better in the spring with the lighter line.

Ok Mike I never let that much out on my full cores between the core and the board. So you are right there by the time you got it all out you would have nearly nothing left with mono. I forgot that you use the sliding board setup just remembered you had trouble with wear on the board. I would rather use 55 series reels for my full core setup but had the 45's so have made them work. I have never been spooled with them but have been close a few times. Perhaps I should consider going to braid but I most likely will stick with mono. It works for me and honestly I am considering going way down on poundage and plan on running 14 lb on my rigger poles this year. I have plenty of 14 lb Stren hi Vis green if anyone needs any. I have a huge spool left roughly 33 miles still left on it and want to use it up.

I have been using 30lb Fireline for backing on my full cores, for the last two seasons and have not had a breakage.

True Mike and I have used Power Pro for 3 seasons on my dipsey rods with no issues since I changed knots. But weren't you having problems with your board pins having excessive wear this summer? My point is using mono for a backer on core works and solves nearly all of the release problems. I think way to often guys start with to small of a reel and use braid to make up the size differance. I have yet to meet the fish that can't be caught on 20 or 25 lb test mono on Lake MI. I have however seen several times when you run out of line cause you chose a small reel and had to run less line to get it to fit. Not much sucks worse then having a fish run and seeing the spool become empty. Oh I forgot to mention my Power Pro is backed with 25 lb mono. What can I say I love mono it works and it is forgiving.

Welcome Boltman

The fishfinder is a nice addition but not as nessacary as many think I assume you allready have a depth sounder on the boat so you know how deep the water is. Water temp is the key to what fish are likely to do and where they will be. Less than 20% of the fish I have caught have been marked on my fishfinder. 70 - 80% of my fish were caught when trolling at the 40 -50 deg temp range with the most in the low to mid 40 range. The Speed and Temp probes are in my opinion the single greatest improvement in the nearly 40 years I have fished the great lakes. Speed at the lure lets you know what the lure is actually doing at that depth and temp lets you know what fish will most likely be there. I listen to the radio and see where the pack is and many times will make a pass thru to see what they are doing. But all to often they are fishing marks that turn out to be inactive suspended fish but they are seeing marks and continue to swap lures and pick away at them. Years ago I was one of the guys who fished the pack now I am quite happy to drive on thru and go find my own fish. This summer when the cold water moved in my wife and I went out one morn to find 40 or more boats right out front and they were getting some fish we drove thru setup in 46 deg water about 15ft off the bottom in 50FOW and headed north we limited out in under a hour and had the water to ourselves. This is something I have done countless times over the last 3 years since buying my Depth Raider.

As to Down Riggers they all seem to work and each has it's plus's and minus's. I like my Big Jons and have had them for years upgraded motors last spring and they are almost to fast. I also have a set of Fishlanders that I like I moved my probe setup top one of the Fishlanders as the desent speed was causing me issues with the Big Jons. However if it had not been for the deal the guys from Fishlander made me at the show I would have came home with a pair of Scotty's. My only issue with Cannons is I like the tip up booms but I see they now have a tip up mount available. I still sometimes wish I had bought the Scotty's as they had auto stops which would make reseting faster and more consistant. Any rigger changes in the future will be to either add auto stop or to replace with units having it.

Hotdog 71 I did not mean to imply that I don't like Power Pro it is a good line as is the Fireline. However the Fireline I have used in the past was more of a flat braid and the Power Pro is a round braid this means you have use differant knots or the Power Pro will cut itself in half as it works. I also had trouble with Power Pro till a friend showed me to use a Palamar knot or a Uni knot. Since I changed knots no more problems.

Tight Lines

Jim

yep nearly all of my rods are Mono only have 2 braid poles for dipsey's and use dacron backer on them have only been past the knot a couple times and held my breath till it was back on the reel. Same setup on my wire rods 600 ft of wire with dacron backer and try to keep the knot on the reel. The other 13 rods on my boat are all based on mono my copper and core rods start with mono and end with mono and all 6 of my rigger rods are mono only. Braids are nice but I have little use for them in my trolling setups except for the dipsey's but run a snubber and mono behind them. Mono will absorb the shock of a big fish changing direction with braids and wire if the drag is set wrong something will break and fast. The one thing I see a lot of is guys using line counter reels on core I have a couple myself but they were setup for other things and had core added to them later in life save the money spent on line counters and buy a bigger reel my full core setup has 250 yds of 25 lb mono then the full core and then 20 yds of 20 lb mono on a Okuma 45 it is full. My copper rods are similar setup on Okuma 55 reels also full. Most guys are too concerned with running hi test lines I have caught huge fish on my 8 lb test Steelhead rod landed a 25 lb king in the White river 2 years ago with it what a battle. In the spring I often run really light lines I often laugh when I talk to bass guys and they try to explain why they need 50 or 60 lb braid to catch a 3 lb fish as it is about the same as us using a warn winch and 600 lb cable to catch a Salmon. Read the rod blank and try to balance your tackle accordingly you will be suprised at how much fun it is to catch fish when they are on even ground. Pretty much all rods are rated for mono line so when it says 10 to 25 lb line that is what it means if you want it to work correctly to light of line the rod action will break the line and too heavy a line will break the rod and the rods rated for 30 to 60 lb line look like pool cues with eyelets. Something to think about anyhow.

Tight Lines

Jim

This is a 2 part problem first braided line does not work well in releases it tends to slip a bit and damage them over time cutting grooves in them so as you work thru the waves it slowly cuts into the release making sharp edges witch cut into the line. The second part is braided line does not stretch so all of the tension is transmitted to the release and the only flex in the setup is the rod itself not a good setup in my opinion. The only reason I know of to use braid with core is if the reel is too small I like big reels the only 30 series reel on my boat is a wire diver setup that was given to me. All of my core setups are mono backer to core then mono leader mostly 25lb backer and 20lb leader this year I started using Flouro clear for leaders and like it. If you are going to use braid for a backer you have to find a release it can't eat up like a blacks release. Then you might have to modify the board to work with them.

Tight Lines

Jim

Very cool

Sorry Nick I thought about going down to the sub but thought maybe you were running late so stayed put. I parked up by the trolley pickup at 7:45 and talked with a couple guys who were heading out they both said it was really slow last few days. So I left about 8:00 and went and got some breakfast. Mike called a little bit ago and said the pier was packed so they were headed to Whitehall to fish the south pier. I am trying to decide if I want to burn the extra gas and drive up and join them so I am gonna wait and call Mike back in a bit and see if they have a decent spot and room for me to fish before I drive up there.

got up this morn and went to Coast Guard station Talked to all the guys there no sign of PAULYWOOD. Thought maybe he was running late so set up and fished till about 7:30 Did not see anyone out on the south pier there were some guys heading out but I was getting cold and several I talked to had not got a Steelie in several days. Decided to go get breakfast instead. Will be back this afternoon to fish with Mike and Terry. I caught and released 8 fish only one legal and zero hits on bait all on spoons. Guy fishing next to me said he had fished Muskegon for 35 years and tried every bait you can name with no success he said they just won't hit bait.