southtrollsouth

Jay....what are all of the other indicators ranked in order of importance that would be used to effect stocking decisions in the future?

I just got done watching 4 different seminars given by charter captains and all of them mentioned flourocarbon line as being one thing they believed in. Are these guys and the rest of you who use this stuff mostly using flourocarbon line and not flourocarbon leader. Is it different if we are talking tying flies or using leaders for leadcore. I can not see someone using $30 worth of flourocarbon leader material on then end of one leadcore setup. I could maybe see them using it to tie flies and meat rigs. I know the stuff is made differently and the leader material is supposedly much stiffer than mono and gives better fly action supposedly.

Great question. We have used fluorocarbon leader material on all flies, diver leaders and copper rigs for almost ten years now. We feel the abrasion resistance and near invisibility far outweighs the limper, stretchier and less durable fluoro line that is closer to mono in terms of visibility. We have tried fluoro line on our riggers and notice a big increase hits. However even the fluoro line is expensive to the point that its tough to justify spooling and respooling your rigger reels several times a year like we do. Fluoro leader is the best for the above applications and does cost more. But, as most guys wrap a couple hundred bucks into every trip in tackle/fuel, etc..the xtra $10 for fluoro leader is easily justified if you can get more hits and fish landed each trip because of it. Our catch rate as measured pre fluoro leader vs post fluoro leader is very noticeable, particularly in dangerous situations cutting across wire divers, rigger cables and abuse at the net.

harmonics

We have trolled straight south the past couple of days and have taken 20 a trip. The only thing East West gets you is a trip to the bait shop.

I am new to the Ludington area, and I have some basic questions for everyone. I know that it could take a lifetime of fishing to develop full answers to some of these questions, but I would really appreciate any tips or help you can provide.

Good questions, but you have far too much on your plate here to think about. We keep it simple, it works.

• What speed do you aim for at the ball?
  No set speed, whatever you pick for your program stick with it every day. Dont listen to anyone else, stick to your speed every time out.
  
• How far behind do you run your spoons and plugs from the ball?
  No set distance. Your lead length will dictate your speed. Tighter leads then slower speed, longer leads then faster speed...generally.
  
• What temperature range do you shoot for?
  Completely ignore temperature, other than finding warm water in spring. We catch kings in 39 to 76 degree water on a regular basis.
  
• How high above and below do you fish the temperature break?
  See above. We dont even know where the break is. Dial in the active zone for the day and put every rod you have in that zone.
  
• How long are your dipsy leaders?
  Doesn't matter. We pull 10 foot, others who smash fish pull 6 foot, some pull 15. Whatever you pick, follow the speed rule above.
  
• How do you calculate how far down a dipsy is? For example 150 back dialed on 3?
  Buy Romanacks book
  
• How long are your fly leaders?
  Doesn't matter. Pull them all the same, and follow your speed rule above.
  
• How do you identify promising areas to fish?
  Wherever you caught one or two. There are fish everywhere, not just one place. If you caught one or two, there are more there. Stay on them. Most guys who catch fish in one depth assume they will catch them with the same program in another depth and wander off aimlessly following the radio. Grind where you catch them, you will catch more.
  
• What is the value of structure in the lake?
  If you have structure, expect to have your gear cut off by every clown out there trying to fish it. If you dont have it, your structure is the current.
  
• How do you find baitfish?
  You dont. You mark it incidentally while fishing. Fish where the active fish are, not where the bait is.
  
• Is live bait worth giving a shot?
  No
  
• Any other advice you can give?
  Turn off the radio, don't talk to anyone, and dial in your own program. Book a couple of charters with different top captains in the ports you want to fish and pay attention. This is fairly easy, not rocket science. good luck out there!
  

All the best,

Nick

I'm still old school and go without (and we get plenty of fish). I do have a Fish Hawk Td though.

Taking after you now Ken..We have them, rarely look at them. Other things are far more important. When your buddy going 2mph slower than you fishing 15 degree different water than you are and he is deckloading them as fast as you are tells you that's not where the story is.

K so this is my 2nd year fishing. Last year we started out w/only riggers and dipsies. For my birthday 8/15 I got a lead core pole per my request and loved it from the get.

This year I have asked my lovely boyfriend for a copper pole. I hear so many great things on GLF about copper of every length.

Well he and his other buddies keep telling me they are too much work and are no better than lead core anyways.

Can anyone tell me the benefits to using core versus lead??

Really need to tip him over to me side of the fence before my birthday in two weeks so I can get my copper!

All input will be greatly appreciated!!

Thank you,

Brianne

Brianne, below is a link to very helpful document that goes fairly in depth into the differences and advantages of copper vs core. If you stop by Fish On in Nunica they can get a reel or two spooled up for you. Good luck!

http://www.coppertrollingwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/001.jpg

We run Shimano Tekota 800's with 600 feet of Hi Vis Backer, and 450 of 32lb copper. The leading edge of our Spin doctors are bare plastic (no paint) after having rotated and ground into the bottom fishing in 90 feet of water.. It is our rod of choice fishing in that depth of water if we are targeting bottom hugging kings or trout..

Bill is a good fisherman for sure. He was a licensed captain for many many years and fished with Best Chance on two winning years over in that same tournament. Those guys spent a week there working hard and it paid off big time...congrats! Another known captain from this site, Josh from the First In took second place pro, second 333 and big fish overall at the tournament. Good job by everyone..

Grizzly,

Feel free to reach out to us (Blood Run) directly through the contact information on our website to learn more about which of our products might work best for you if you decide to try them out. Much of what you read on the internet other than from actual customers is based purely upon speculation and inaccuracies.

And thank you to our customers and their kind words of success! We truly appreciate your support!

Good fishing!

The 32lb is definitely very user friendly for guys just getting into copper. It fishes very close to that of the 45lb, but is smaller in diameter so less knot hang up on line guides. The new Super 45 was just released and is a smaller diameter than the original 45lb, but just as heavy per inch/foot. The advantage is even more user friendly than the original 45, but smaller dia. You can put more of it on your reels and its just as easy to use as the 32lb.

Backer recommendations are a heavier mono, or Blood Runs backer material. You get the stretch you need, at an affordable price, and wont slip like braid in a release.

Definitely give some thought to the boards you are going to use as well. The shallower coppers pull great with Church TX-22's, while the longer rigs pull out best with the TX-44's. You want to get your stuff wide and out past your divers a ways, or you will be dealing with tangles. Good boards like the Church's pull hard and out away from your inside spread..

I run 6' leads and do just fine.

If my dipsey isn't firing, it's not because of the dipsey itself. It's because I don't have the right flasher/fly combo, or they don't want flies at all. If thats the case, I then switch over to spoons and... FISH ON!

Long leads aren't the secret to success w/ dipseys, IMHO. It's an agressive presentation that solicits agressive fish. The dipsey itself is an attractor! Why do you suppose guys love their wire?

Save the "stealth" for your long lines like copper and lead.

You are 100% correct. The only reason why we run slightly longer leaders is to get the customers out of the cockpit backing up with the rod so they dont lean over at the last minute and put the fish out of net range. We handline our coppers and riggers to the net as well and tell all customers to back up towards the helm during netting. Much greater control of fish that way rather than with a 10 foot pole sticking up in the air..

I run z boards as they are tunablefor where you want the board to run and you can also have them release to change a lure or when you have a fish on and they dont dive like the church boards do which are a pain in the a** to reel in.

That can definitely be an issue if you point your rod tip in the air. We always fight all of our fish with the rod tip pointed directly at the board or directly at the water closer to an even plane with the board. That is standard for any planer, which keeps boards from diving.

We exclusively run and recommend only the Church TX-22 and TX-44's for pulling our copper (Blood Run). We recommend anything up to a 250' either 32lb or 45lb that the 22's do just fine. Anything beyond that, we feel the TX-44 are the answer. Alot has to do with their ability to track well together, which is one of the keys on reading current properly. Our new 30lb backer material is suited well for both boards...either the standard or new lock jaw releases. We have tested the lock jaws with impressive performance on thinner dia backers such as smaller mono like 25lb and below along with most braids. But we still prefer a larger dia backer material to withstand release abuse and the ability of standard releases to grip the backer line better.

What about fertilizer to make algae blooms

You guys are on the right track. As much as we flip out about Milwaukee and Chicago and Grand Rapids sewage overflows, or BP dumping ammonia mixture in Gary...that is the best thing we could possibly have going for us. Put that with every farmer around the lake dumping tons of fertilizer on fields right now..pray for heavy rains to wash all that into the rivers and the lake. Those nutrients will arrive just in time to filter through the nearshore layers and begin the bottom of the food chain process that will feed YOY alewife. Dirty is good..

Maybe someone will talk the clean water freaks into letting us dump carcasses into the lake, thats where they came from anyway.

lake huron fish were starving prior to their crash if I remember correctly. Ours are obviously not. Kings dont get to 20lbs in the spring by starvation, they have been eating quite well for a while. For what its worth, over 90% of the 400+ salmon we have caught so far this year since March 31, all have had some bait in them...all different age classes.

Lake Ontario is experiencing the same fishing we are right now, and they arent predicting a crash either.

This is weather related event, which will all change by this weekend with south winds and warmer water which will begin to scatter predator and prey across a wider area of the lake and get things back to normal. I would be shocked if anyone is boxing anywhere near what they have in the next couple of weeks. Though it still will be May, and fish are stupid, and will bite anything just about any where...so it will still be good, just not as good.

But stocks need to be cut, I do believe there is closer to 60 or 70% natural reproduction.

OK a couple questions on copper setups. I have a magdma pro 30 and a convector 45 that I'm gonna put copper on were using 30 lb blood run backer what is the most copper I can fit on each reel? We have 32lb and 45lb. My buddy also has 4 convector 55's how much can we fit on those. Thanks for any help I wanna get most copper as possible on but don't wanna make it a guessing game. Will be fishing port Sheldon Saturday and Sunday.

Give Blood Run a call today..they will have some info for you..616-439-0438

Great question! BR introduced the backer material as a lower cost alternative than most braids, but of higher quality than a standard mono. Standard mono is inexpensive, but is also very prone to UV breakdown which shows itself as a chalky look to the line. At that point..the mono is actually weakening and absorbing more moisture which will reduce breaking strength. Braid on the other hand has no stretch, and copper has no stretch, and fluorocarbon leader has little to no stretch. Situation then happens that unless you are using a very high end reel with a very smooth drag, you are putting a ton of stress on that braid backer setup which could lead to line or knot failure because there is no give anywhere in that setup.

The BR backer material is a mono core which provides the stretch and shock absorbance to compensate for drags on $50 reels, but also has the fluoro coating for abrasion resistance to planer releases and UV resistance hanging suspended in the air all day all season.

Hi-vis lets you see better out to your boards to catch "board crossings" in rough weather or turns which ultimately lead to nasty tangles.

I've always been a 45lb copper guy but I'm leaning towards trying a spool of the 32lb next time... Once my bulk leadcore is gone I'll probably get a 3000 ft spool of the 32lb bloodrun.

The big thing is to fish with whatever you are most comfortable with, both work great! We like the 32lb as we feel it fishes just as deep as the 45lb in the top 100 feet, and it is much easier for our customers to pay out when we need to get lines back in the water fast. Smaller knots hang up less on line guides and overall more user friendly. We do have some 45's when we run 500-700 coppers..

Hey you guys your waaay overcomplicating this thing. I had a thread on another board regarding this, so maybe this will help out. Break the water into thirds...top third, mid third, bottom third. If you are fishing the top third, or shallow, fish a 50, 75, 100, 150 32lb copper. Mid third (like 40-60 down) fish a 200, 250 or 300. If you are catching fish deep, throw out your 350, 400, 450. It does not matter one single bit to try and estimate the exact depth of your coppers. Just stuff the active strike box with as many legal lines as you can without getting tangled...that's the game. We fish all 32lb, we just like it better. We sell 50-50 on 32lb vs 45. Whoever said the 45 and 32lb fish almost the same, you are 100% correct. If you straight line troll, no turns, constant speed, you will see exactly that result. If you turn or let your buddy drive and dont watch the throttle, your rigs are all over the place on depth so why even worry about where you might think your rigs are fishing. If you are that particular, dont turn, dont touch the throttle, and 50 foot spacing on copper rigs will cover everything in the active strike box.

I just don't find any use for 32#, I run all 45# in different segments and find it easy to work with. Why run longer lengths if you don't have to, I find mysself in some tight areas and want to run copper but need it as short as possible. My 100,150,200,250,300'ers work well.

Everyone has their preference, and we have both sizes of copper for each group of guys. Big advantage on 32lb is

1) dive curves easy to remember!

2) small knots pass through small levelwinds

3) fits well on smaller reels

4) More fun catching top surface coho, steel, brown on smaller dia

5) More user friendly and forgiving than 45lb. We refer to 45lb as cable..its big!

6) Less steep of a angle entry into water, more like a long gradual drop into the water column, stealth ala leadcore

7) Fishes completely different than leadcore, tracks straight behind boat (all coppers) rather than snaking with current like core does, which is sometimes undesireable.

45lb is great when

1) You have a need to reach very deep depths

2) Have big reels with big capacity for enough backer and big knots

3) You are more experienced with copper, as the heavier cable pays off the reel much differently, and must be watched more closely for back spooling because the cable is rubbing against the levelwind and line guides which causes the line to "catch" and backspool. Always use your clicker!

We own the company, we fish all 32lb on our personal charter boats, right out to 450 foot segments. 45lb is great, we sell a ton of it, guys love it.....but we personally feel the 32lb fishes better overall for a number of reasons listed above..

Either way you wont go wrong, just a matter of preference and most importantly confidence in what you are running in the water. And a big thank you Jimcr for supporting our company and purchasing our products. Please call or email us any time with any questions..we are here to support you and help you be as successful as you can fishing our lines!

Last season my hot setup was a 225 45lb setup. Year before was a 300ft 45lb gets down to 60 ft i know cause in 60 ft i had sand in my swivels and mussels on my hooks. If you have a full core already. i woud consider a 225 and some dive bombs to get to that 80ft and 100ft depth when the fish are deeper. This way 1 rod would be like having 3 on board. Just my 2 cents.

300 of 45lb trolling into the current will fish at 80 feet down. You definitely would have mussels on your hooks in 60 feet with 300 45lb regardless of which direction you might troll.

200 feet of 32lb fishes right at 40 feet down, identical to a full core. 200 feet of 45lb is 45-50 down closer to a 12 color.

Saltwater is electro conductive and our striper guys who fish our copper (Blood Run) do notice a difference. Freshwater...no.

we crank the drags as absolutely tight as we can on our wire divers. Our drags are pretty broken in so you can still put just a little out with your bare hands. Fish nails it and a just buries the hooks instantly. We use ancient stretched out sun fatigued snubbers that dont even stretch anymore. Rarely if ever do we lose fish on wire divers with this setup. If you let fish run with no tension, they will not bury the hook, and will immediately swim wherever they want to, most likely into the nearest other diver or copper. Make them pay for every foot they take, you will land more this way..

I want to offer my sincere apologies to all the Muskegon guys.

In my post Easy/crazy fishing in Muskegon, I did not intent to insinuate that the guys that fish there are fishing in a fish bowl, or are not good fisherman. It was simply state that it was the easiest/best fishing I have ever had. As a captain running my program, I have never had such a good day.

Sorry if I offended anyone.

Nailer, its easy everywhere right now all the way up and down the coast. Guys who have it dialed in are whooping them good, guys who dont are still having great action. Everyone is a world beater right now...