southtrollsouth

The jury is still way out on what exactly the future holds. Two severe winters have set mean water temps back about 10 degrees from normal. Cool summer weather is not heating up the water. Cold water = lazy fish, hot water = 2012 mayhem.

There is fantastic silver fishing for more than just a day in several Wisc/Illinois ports and northern Michigan ports. Frequent double digit silver catches in Ludington recently.

Lake Ontario has been worse than Lake MI until this past week, along with mid-East Erie very slow on walleye until last week. It is almost all due to water temperatures and persistent east/north/northeast winds and no hot air temps to warm the top and create thermals.

Strong El Nino this winter and forecasted hot summer next season will both be needed to bring Lake MI back up to normal water temps and stratification. Silver fishing for if nothing else than that will improve.

As for the stocks/cuts/population etc...natural reproduction is very strong. Can't remember the last king caught that had a fin clip. Natural reproduction should boom this year with high and cold water. Remember that most of the nat reproduction is not in Michigan..but Ontario rivers near Georgian Bay. There are no greencoats standing there counting salmon as they swim by, so you won't have a "return" number to fret about. I have pics of silver kings that have run most Michigan rivers and Ontario tribs already dating back to this past May. In the Pacific Northwest, they are called springers.

Kings and coho's are eating Gobies down near Chicago btw, they are starting to figure it out.

This is NOT a poll

This petition has been started by a member of a forum I attend, "Lake Ontario United". And one of the guys started this petition for change. If you have a minute please read and sign the petition.

All it asks for is a name an email address. That information is kept private.

Please Help. This will help get the attention that the Chinook salmon needs.

Since the St. Lawrence Seaway will always remain open, Alewives will continue to persist in Lake Ontario. If you believe this premise then you must also understand that as long as there are Alewives, Chinook Salmon(Kings) will be needed to control this baitfish. Therefore, there will always be kings in Lake Ontario. In an attempt to stop Chinook Salmon from the continual treatment as a second rate "exotic" species by politicians who don't understand why an "exotic species" salmon program needs funding or by biologists who are in the hardcore "native species-only" camp. Perhaps changing the designation will lessen the burden. So lets start an online petition here.

Click on the link below. It takes just a minute of your time. That's it!

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/change-the-status-of-chinook-salmon-in-lake

The Welland Canal links Lake O to Lake Erie, which via the Detroit and St Clair River links to Lake Huron, which links to Lake Michigan. In effect creating a continuous connection between all waterways. This petition should apply to all great lakes. Come spend a day with Native Tribes here in Michigan and you would re-define the meaning of "hardcore native only". You don't have a commercial gill net fishery driving insane Lake Trout stocking like we do.

Anybody ever have there planer boards dive when a fish hits them? This weekend was the first time I have had a real issue with this. Lost 3 fish due to our boards diving before we could get to the rods. Can anybody help me out on this one? Im using church planer boards i believe they are tx-22's.

We had similar issues with the TX22 and switched back to walleye boards with the weight pushed all the way forward for coppers up to 250'. Any coppers over 250' get TX-44.

Keep your rod tips as high as possible in your rod holders when trolling, then keep your rod tips as low as possible when you are fighting a fish, like pointing into the water.

Keep in mind this: the actual current is below the surface, the waves, are on top of the surface. So, does it always follow that the current and waves are in synchronization? Not really, and how do you tell? Watching your dropped rigger lines when set will mostly tell you the direction of the current. Say you are going downwind with the waves, most favor this troll if choppy. How are the lines looking? Are they swaying to one side or the other of the transom? Or are they swung way out? Or are they up tight to the transom? Try to project yourself into the fish to see where the best presentation is. And of course where you start marking and getting hits. Fishing, at least to me on the great lakes, is not all black and white rules, its science at it's finest, if you approach it that way. Another important factor is the speed of that current. Watch your fishhawk and observe the speed. I've seen the current pushing 2mph at one point, then, in less than 50 yards further, speed up to 4mph. The speed at the lure is ever important to presentation, and bites.

Great points by Rascal. Often times after a sustained blow from a certain direction piling water up against a shoreline, the water runs out of places to go and rushes back the opposite direction down below. Watching gear and speed are both recommended. If your gear doesn't look straight you should figure it out quick or it can result in big time tangles, or fish hitting at weird angles when they do hit, resulting in poor hookups.

We have not really seen one direction better than the other. What is key is your presentation being dialed in for whichever way you are going. If you are trolling into the current and everything is working, when you turn, everything is now at a different depth (and likely speed if you dont have down speed) and your action will turn off. If you compensate for this action can and should be the same. Divers and riggers always do better into the current, coppers do best rolling with the current.

Have a buddy with a smaller boat, whenever he goes out in rough seas he runs for several hours into it, then turns around trolls all the way home with the waves and current. 4 coppers a side...that's it. Whacks them every time.

The 30lb backing line is fine for shorter 60lb (300 and less). You could probably get more 50lb braid on, but not much more. Maybe enough to put on 350 of 60lb, which would equal 450 of 45lb.

Dive bombs are great, as long as it is on your inside rod or only rod. You cannot set a dive bomb, torpedo, or similar snap on weighted device on a long line, and set it back out into your spread over other inside copper rigs. You will tangle immediately as they dive too sharply. This is common knowledge, but never mentioned by fans of those devices.

If you run multiple coppers, which most do, you need to use just the appropriate staggered segments of copper to allow for easy retrieve and redeploy of your rigs after changing baits or catching fish.

We did put 50lb mono backer on our Solterra for 400+ 60lb copper. We are not fans of braid because it slips in planer releases and dry rots on the reel. Long 60lb copper with TX 44 planers put a huge amount of strain on the backer, so we stepped up to 50lb mono to be safe.

By the sounds of it using 60 pd copper just sound like a meat fishing setup why not just put a smaller cannonball on a rigger with a leader and winch them in?

I would say copper fishing in general is categorized as meat fishing. No one really enjoys it much, or finds it very sporting. It does however take greater than 50% of our catch every trip. The benefit so far for sure is the 100 feet less of line you have to reel in compared to 45lb. That is very nice! With as deep as we have to fish most seasons, there are just only so many ways to get more deep rigs in the water, and outside of a couple of downriggers and a few divers, copper is it. 60lb does it with less line out..

Mark,

We moved one of our boats over to all 60lb copper (from a mix of 32lb and 45lb). We had some real productive copper lengths in the 32 and 45, so it took a while of playing around to find the comparative 60lb segments. The depth data charts on the Blood Run site should help get a cross reference.

From fishing it really hard, we can say this. It does catch fish. It also beats fish to death. We have pulled 20lb kings to the surface with this copper and skip them in like a 5lb coho. It really wears the fish out, and is strictly used to get numbers in the boat.

It really only performs well with a Church TX 44 inline planer board. The walleye boards and other regular size boards drag back too far for our liking. The 44's pull them up forward where we want them. However, the heavy copper with heavy board really requires a loose drag or watching your rod tips. We have dragged 10lb kings and coho around without even noticing, if not for watching our rod tips. There will be slight bounce in your tips when no fish is on, the rod will not bounce at all when you have a fish on. Obviously a big fish will really bend the rod in half and scream drag, but anything other than 10lb+ fish you have to watch it.

You also have to deploy with your clicker on all the time. In fact, we apply significant pressure with our thumb on the reel and pull out hard with our other hand for the first 50 or so feet. If you just start jerking it out with the clicker on like 45lb and apply no pressure with your thumb, it will backlash.

The more you fish it, the more it softens up. It is definitely nice to save your arms an extra 100 feet of line to reel in! It is some seriously heavy duty wire that is for sure and in our opinion forces fish to swim right at the boat. There are no long runs, even on the 20lb+ kings we have had on. The fish swim quickly at the boat with the 60lb, unlike the 45 and 32lb. You have to crank like mad to keep up with them.

The walleye boards are fine with the weight pushed all the way forward...for 32lb copper and short 45lb segments. With spoons..

If you put a 300+ segment or a flasher on, it will drag waay back.. You can't appreciate how far back it actually does drag until you run the same setup on a TX 44 or Ziggy Board and watch them pull the same rig way far up to the side. It is a HUGE difference.

We have noticed as well that in any kind of current or headwind, even with a spoon or light copper, the walleye boards drag way back, moreso than they do on flat calm seas.

We have been using the original Ziggy boards (green ones) quite a bit lately and they are stellar. Hard to find though...only in Sheboygan at a couple tackle shops.

No way a walleye board pulls 60lb copper either, without it dragging straight behind the boat.

Thank you STS for the super informative chart. That is one of the best guide line's I have seen.

I will be bringing a couple for sure to run on the outside away from our normal spread. we will cover top to bottom with the inside spread and let the copper work it's magic away from the boat. I just have to believe it is an ideal presentation for finicky walleye.

I really appreciate all of this input.

No problem Hawk...a cleaner version was just posted here

http://www.bloodruntackle.com/walleye-copper-dive-curve-depth-charts-reef-runner-dive-curves-depth-data/

Its a great way to make use of your left over copper for sure! Let us know how you end up..good luck.

I have a budget for only (2) coppers. I'm thinking (1) 300', 45lb. and (1) 300', 32lb. I should have an average depth of 80' for the 45lb, and 60' for the 32lb, give or take a few feet for lure selection, underwater current, speed etc. What do you guys think? Good or bad choice?

The 45lb and 32lb Blood Run, both run within 3-5 feet of one another all the way out to 600' of copper, regardless of trolling speed or lure selection. You would basically have both of those rods fishing within the same vertical section of the water column. If that is your goal, then you are good to go!

If you are looking to work different depths and know what your typical trolling speed is, you should check out the depth data chart on the Blood Run site and figure out which setups would get you where you need to be.

Good luck..they are producers!

I have some extra from spooling up this spring. I would have to buy a spool of lead. If it is not worth messing with, well, that is what I want to know.

You are on the right track. There are a number of Walleye pro's and charter captains that are pulling only copper for Walleyes now on both Lake Erie and Saginaw Bay, in lieu of leadcore or messing with mini disks.

You can use the short segments of 45lb that you have, here are the depth numbers on the 20lb Walleye Copper. These are for clean spoons or crawler harnesses. The bottom set of numbers are for various sizes of reef runners.

Line Out 2.5 gps 2.0 gps 1.5 gps

300' 49 65' 90

250' 40 55' 74

200' 33 43' 67

150' 24 31' 51

100' 16 20' 35

90' 14 20' 29

80' 12 16' 26

70' 11 14' 24

60' 10 12' 21

50' 8 10' 17

40' 6 8' 14

30' 5 6' 11

20' 3 4' 9

10' 1 2' 7

Copper Out @ 2.0 GPS Reef Deep Diver 800 Reef Ripstick 700 Reef Deep Little Rip 600 Reef Little Rip 500

300' 68' 68' 62' 58'

250' 57' 55' 53' 55'

200' 46' 46' 45' 45'

150' 36' 34' 37' 36'

100' 26' 24' 26' 27'

90' 22' 19' 22' 23'

80' 20' 16' 19' 21'

70' 18' 14' 18' 19'

60' 16' 13' 15' 16'

50' 14' 11' 13' 14'

40' 12' 9' 10' 12'

30' 10' 5' 8' 10'

20' 8' 4' 6' 8'

10' 6' 2' 4' 6'

The biggest problem i find with these numbers that most of us [at least on the west side ] run at between 1.8 -2.2 on the probe . not gps speeds . GPS speeds do not take in consideration of currents. I run 1.9 on my probe which can get anywhere from 1.9 to 3.5 on my gps. But lets say I read this wrong then I run .6 slower then the tests, my lines are running much deeper that these at 2.5

You hit the nail on the head Jim! These numbers were taken at 2.5 gps speed with a spoon, no current. They are used as a baseline reference to show representation for that specific speed, conditions and that particular setup only.

Once current, different lures, different downspeeds are introduced, everything will change fairly significantly. Only you will be able to know what your individual depth is for your rigs at any given time when you begin to collect your own data using some kind of depth collecting device or performing your own tests.

Frankly we don't even care what these numbers were after we recorded them. Our reels still say 150, 250, 300 etc. When they get bit, we put more of them out or try to duplicate where we guess it might be...high, low or middle part of the water column....not a particular depth increment.

This whole exercise was to give insight into how much different depth data can be given different situations and lures. If you are surprised with these, wait until you see what 2.0 gps numbers look like.

We are just reporting what we see, everyone else can be the judge. We believe they are extremely accurate, as verified by others using mathematical formulas which match nearly identical (which was very surprising). We had a contest on facebook asking people to guess how deep a 60lb 500' copper would run at 2.5 gps speed. We gave two other pieces of info, weight of 3000' of that material, and depth data from equivalent 45lb.

42 different people calculated approx 109 feet, by using some mathematical formula based on the info we provided. The smart troll reported exactly that...109'. That to us is more than coincidence, to others might just be coincidence.

We did this because we wanted to know, and for the benefit of all fishermen who cannot or do not wish to try and collect data. We report, you can decide. Regardless of anyone's favorite brand of copper or affinity to leadcore.

We will continue to do more and more tests with different setups, different speeds, etc and report them. Hopefully everyone finds enjoyment, usefulness and maybe entertainment in them

You would not believe the amount of both hate mail and "thank you's" we have received because of this. If the hate mail continues, we will probably just keep our numbers to ourselves and not share the information we collect. That will be unfortunate for everyone.

We hope it does not bring out the negative in people who chose to spin this away from its original intent.

Man this is confusing. Ive always thought that 300' of 45lb copper will get to approx. 70' and 10 colors of leadcore will get to approx. 55'. Ive hit bottom in those ranges with those rigs albeit there are many variables. Just rigged up 300' of 60lb copper in hopes that it would get me down into the 80-90' range. Blood runs website 300' of 60lb will get to 109' so i guess ill have to test on my own... Mark

Mark, take a look again. 300' of 60lb copper™ with a spoon readings back were at 64'. 500' of 60lb Copper™ was recorded at 109'

i gotta believe a huge difference..considering .5 mph is a fairly large percentage of your overall speed..perhaps i was doing a tenth of a mph slower than 2.5 and thats why my 300 hit bottom..soooo many variables

There is a huge difference Don. We did some quick tests at 2.0 with 60lb 500' copper and got 145'. 2.5 gps with the same length of copper was 109.

Here is a link for a visual representation of the dive chart along with some reel fill calculation data. We will be doing this at 2.0 this weekend and will have a similar curve chart to view.

http://www.bloodruntackle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/CopperDiveChart.pdf

I own a smart troll system and there is no way that the probes are causing enough resistance to bring your lines up 5-10'. They are tiny and made of carbon fiber so incredibly light. Here is a link to the website, they are a 1/2 inch diameter and less than 4 inches long. There is a picture on the link I pasted below showing the probe next to a dime. If you think these probes cause that much resistance, what would a 13" paddle, that weighs five times as much do?

http://smarttroll.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=5

You are correct. With all of this heavy line and so much of it out, we believe the influence on running depth is inches or less.

One thing to remember about Coppers fellas is the twist rate per inch. Each manufactures is different. The more twist between the stands per inch the heavier the copper is and the more it should sink. The Smart Troll will take a lot of guessing out of the equation if it works the way it's supposed to.

False...we ran atomik and Morgans as well...2 foot delta.

At least you got out. After I turned my boat Into a line winder I pulled it to check the seal and check for water in lower unit. All is good and going back In Tomorrow.

:lol::lol: No tournament is worth all that Don.

After all the less than stellar reports out of Muskegon we ran to saugatuck. Set up in 70 and worked in and out between 50 and 70 raking bottom for trout. Although this was a successful tactic it was also expensive. Hung up a rigger and had to cut the cable and wound up a little line In The prop backing up. Cleared the line and picked up 7 nice trout. Trash can with green spin n glow took 5 on diver tapping bottom. 250 copper with pearl fishscale paddle and frosted fern fly took 1 and rigger dragging bottom with trout rig took 1. Weighed 6 decent trout for 2nd place and learned where some rock piles are:). Thanks to Jason and mike for the trout lessons:thumb:

lol

Lake O is experiencing the same situation right now. Just weather related...

When it gets going it will be crazy.

Best Chance blanked too...not on score sheet? Couple other boats fished also not on score sheet. Tough bite.

Yes i know about that but do a google search of 45 lb blood run some say it is. 033 some say. 038 in dia. I dont have a micrometer at home to measure it.

It is .035

Our real world spooling experience on the Tek 800 is 450' of 45lb with 150 yards of our 30lb copper backer line...which is .019 fyi.

450 feet of backer on a 450 copper is plenty enough. There is no need to put excessive amounts of expensive braid backer on these coppers. There is so much resistance from that amount of copper and planer board it would be a miracle with even a decent drag setting to have a fish pull out 300' of line.

Below is a link of a 29lb king taken on a 450 450 setup last year on Lake O. No problem...

http://www.coppertrollingwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/414735_377360985634808_775008599_o.jpg

I like the name on the side...stripper. I think you forgot an extra P and an S on the end though..

I saw the purple "Tournament" line on the Blood Run website. The description for it and the "regular" downrigger line is identical though. The only hint of any difference is in the product picture. I emailed them to ask what makes the "Tournament" line so much better and worth twice the price.

I do wish that they would make it in something other (less) than 20# test. I'm probably going to regret saying this out loud , but break offs have never been a big problem for me nor has fish getting into the rigger lines. It isn't like we are fishing for bass with weeds, rocks, and branches for the fish to get into out there on the big lakes. Aside from the downriggers there just isn't anything out there for the fish to get into and break off. If the drag is set right I don't see the need for any main line over 20# and based on my results, I subscribe to the same philosophy as Dan Keating and beleive the lighter lines get more hits -- especially when fishing spoons.

Any line that has abrasion resistance is key and worth the extra expense for guys who fish tournaments, charters and worry about losing a $20 paddle/meat rig combo. Any serious fisherman has lost fish wrapped around wire divers, coppers and downrigger cables...it just happens. Based upon your regular visits and responses to these internet forums, surely Ryan you fish hundreds of hours and land hundreds of fish a year and must have experienced at least 1 lost fish due to a line break? One???