WALRANGER5

Josh, I feel the same way. I'm thinking not only close the season a touch longer but expand the area to include the Bay:). I know some areas on the Bay where its slaughter time in late March and early April. I don't partake in that. Most of the fish I catch between Late April and August are the 17-22inch fish. I like it like that.

i agree, add a slot limit, can only help protect the fish. I read where a couple lakes in Canada are closed every other year to give nature a break from us!

I have followed this post and have to disagree with a slot limit helping our situation in the time frame that is needed. Creating more predator size of fish will take way to long by using a slot limit. I fish the bay on average a dozen times a year, and I have to say we catch our limit almost every time out. In the last four years, give or take a couple, I have put very few large walleye in the boat. I know the fish are out there, just not as common for me. So out of the few hundred walleye we catch, very few would ever make it back in the water using a slot limit. This method would only affect and be helpful to the guys that are more fortunate to catch these larger fish on a regular basis . So with that thought in mind not everyone can contribute to help our situation. But what can affect and allow every person that fish these waters to help, would be to close the season a little longer and allow more of the larger predator size fish to remain in the system. It is very common to catch a limit of these size fish during the spawning times. If having more predator size fish is the answer, then I would much rather give up a few weeks of river fishing to allow these fish to live another day. I believe we could save more fish in three weeks during spawning time then we could all year with a slot limit. This was mentioned in this post already by some one else and I think it is our best chance for all of us to help.

Forgive me if I didn't splain it right. It's not about larger predators, it's about number of predators, small walleyes would be great Asian Carp predators. The slot protects the females/egg factories. MDNR more eggs ecological safety factor. They give the slot limit the credit for great fishing in Bay denoc. MDNR special report 41 Prevent quality overfishing. Prevent economic overfishing. Prevent community overfishing! Any restrictions on us is a good thing. Closing the season more sure, as one biologist put it "no matter when you catch a fish, at spawn time or otherwise, it's still out of the game" Low number of females threaten spawn success, tons of studies about that. The slot lets someone keep the wallhanger if they get one. Keeping more native fish/predators in the game is the plan. Just because we can keep them doesn't mean we should. You leave one hole for the Asian carp to spawn in they will.

Walranger5

I agree with you about people taking to many big fish but don't agree with a slot limit on them. I agree that all fish have predators and the muzzles in lake Huron cased the collapse of alewife which lead to more walleyes. My question is we have all these little walleyes from record years reproducing in lake Huron. I would think these small walleyes would also be capable of eating a small size Asian Carp if they like them?

I Catch Her

Here is some info to read.

http://www.wwmt.com/articles/carp-1401110-detroit-ambassador.html

I know they will like them, because there's no reason for them not to eat them. Juvenile Asian carp look dead nuts, like baby shad, except the spot, no spines easy prey. It's just like the biologists say, "sufficient numbers" Common carp experts already know when you take out adult carp you have plant predators, if not carp actually increase, proven in Illinois, over and over. A slot doesn't change the limit, just makes us more responsible.

"There have been trucks full of live Asian Carp stop at the Ambassador bridge already."

Say what???!!

The Chinese like thier asian carp live, they also think it is good luck to buy 2 and throw one back (alive) They also prefer bighead to silver flying carp) Asian Carp can become toxic if not processed in 24 hrs. I got that from the Dr. that is trying to grind them into fish pills. He told me he had an exchange student, who told him, buying them alive is the only way, the common man can be sure they're fresh. Plus they get more money alive.

I think a slot limit on walleyes would have little effect on the Asian Carp. I don't agree with putting a slot limit on walleye but rather close the season a little longer than it currently is. I have fished the Titt river in the spring and seen stringers of five walleyes ranging 10 to 15 pounds from way to many people over the years. They are very easy to catch in the spring I feel and should be protected longer. Once a walleye gets over 24 inches they don't taste all that good anyway so a lot of people let them go anyway. I feel the Walleye pollution is growing in lake Huron. Last year we picked up several well salmon and lake trout fishing even at 65 feet down. I have done well the last several years on Saginaw Bay ice fishing and feel the walleye population is growing. I always get at least one really nice Walleye 10lb plus every year on the bay and let it go. I know there are trophy walleye in the lake you just have to put in some time to get one.

I hope we can figure out something to help control the Asian Carp as I feel its a matter of time before we see them and think they are here already. There have been trucks full of live Asian Carp stop at the Ambassador bridge already. Whats not to say a truck load has been dropped off already?

Any walleye out of Muskegon Lake over 5 pounds tastes like slab wood. One walleye over 23 inches, is simple and easy to understand, can't rely on people to do the right thing. According to the DNR eggs is a biological safety factor, against negative factors. More females more eggs, costs nothing. If people don't understand catch and release then you teach them. We have several native predators for juvenile asian carp, which they say are veru bad at avoiding predators. Adults are very good at avoiding capture. Illinois has proven over and over that just removing adults they increase, because you just took out the competition for the next spawn of the ones you missed. They knew this from common carp control. I would also point out, the alewives kept the Saginaw bay walleye population down, by eating the fry or "controling the spawn" which is how we can attack the asian carp, and control thier spawn/recruitment. Google (biotic-resistance native predators) do a little research, all baby fish have predators including Asian carp!

I participated in the GLMRIS conference call yesterday Feb.8 regarding thier proposed controls for Asian carp/invasive species. The bad news is they will take 5 years or more for thier studies and they're only in the first phase. There is no good news. You can read the proposals and have until Feb. 17th. to comment, on the GLMRIS website.

Main criteria is the control has to be available, I would point out poisons that only kill Asian Carp do not exist, predators are available now, can be used now, proactive. The FWS is already stocking Asian Carp predators down south.

The bottomline is we have several native predators for juvenile Asian Carp, and the rest of our invasive species. The problem is they are also predators of both alewives and salmon, both invasive species. Keeping the lakes safe for them, protects all invasive species. Restoring native predators turns the entire lake into an invasive species control, no matter how the get in. Waiting 10 to 20 years and billions of dollars to plug one hole in Chicago, means we're going to have a carp problem. Politics wont fix this, nor will money, only nature and common sense can fix this, and we're running short on those. Slot limits are just a part of what we can do, to make our lakes as resistant as possible against all invasive species.

I was reading that it would take them 10-17 years on top of the $3+ billion. So laughable.

I agree, too many people trying to make a buck off a crisis. The MDNR Asian Carp Plan is a 5 year study, that they admit they don't know what they'll do except it will be expensive. Restoring native predators can be done now, can be done very cheaply, (If we don't let the "guvmint do it) slot limits are just good fishery management. If people don't understand catch and release then teach them. Eric sharps article Canadian lake 70 to 80 Pike in one day, where can you do that here? What's wrong with letting some go? A biologist once said about catching fish during spawn, whether you take them out at spawn time or fall, they're still out of the game. The longer native fish stay in the game the more predatory pressure is applied to invasive species, take them out of the game!

Eric sharp's outdoor article Free Press today says the DNR wants a survey about slot limits on Pike. We know there's issues with the Pike when they dropped the limit to 2 per day from 5. I know what I used to catch. The gobies are in the backwaters, and Pike don't guard thier eggs, Goby food. If a slot limit is good for Pike it's good for walleyes, anything we can do to protect any native fish is a good thing.

I don't understand why filling in part of a canal will cost $3 billion dollars?

It always takes more "guvmint dollars" than regular dollars to do anything. Almost a million dollars for 1277 feet of chain link fence? $13 million for chain link fence to block over flo from the Desplaines river into the SAG canal a hundred feet away (which they knew about before they built the barrier) A million dollars a year, to study what asian carp eat? Anybody else see a pattern here? How much do you thinks Asian Carp ray guns will cost?

The separate study about closing off the Chicago canal has been released, the cheap one is only $3 billion dollars, 4 more barriers can be built for a mere $140 million. This is just for one spot. We can't afford to let the government control the Asian carp. A high native fish/predator population, makes the entire lake a control, no matter how any invasive species gets in, it really is that simple.

We started this 7 years ago, after 20 years of Perch contests, and nobody catching any Perch (Muskegon county), and after the DNR asked for suggestions on how to control zebra mussels and Gobies. Both the Ohio Dnr and Wisconsin Dnr had figured out the mussels and Goby controled most of the food until native fish reached 2 inches, the the gobies and mussels become the food. So the solution was simple, stock Perch at 2 inches. We cut a deal with a local fish farmer, 3, 2 inch Perch for a dollar. So a simple fund raiser, was all that was needed. I've had people offer me 100 dollar bills, to bring back the Perch. Contacted the DNR about a permit, and a long list of excuses, followed, first one was the marinas took out all the weeds, the Perch need to spawn, that's why we don't have Perch. They get worse (or stupider) from there. There are millions of dollars in studies already paid for, that were done so fisheries managers can make good decisions regarding our lakes. Most are ignored. The Asian Carp are the most dangerous, because they can grow to be invulnerable to predators, and have all the attributes needed to survive here. All baby fish have predators, this includes the carp, walleyes even eat juvenile lampreys, could they control them? Who knows, but they can help reduce them, which is what we're supposed to be doing. Lack of native predators allowed all invasives to thrive, this doesn't mean we don't have any, it means lacking enough. There is too much conflict of interest between stakeholders, we are all supposed to be doing what's best for the overall, ecosystem, that affects everyone, whether they fish or not.

No comments, I hope I didn't scare y'all off. I just found out the Electric barrier in Chicago will now cost over $28,000 dollars per day in 2012.A Jump from $8 million to over $10 million per year. Keep in mind restoring native fish they can build all the barriers they want. Call it a plan B in case the "barriers" don't stop them. Truth is they let the carp go too long, we're stuck with them forever. There is no if they get in, we can keep thier numbers low with predators, having them in place before they get too big and abundant would be nice.

In the Daily Egyptian, Jan 17 2012 (Asian Carp invade Illinois waterways) Jim Garvey part of the Fed team, made some statements, I would like to address. 5 key points. No1 " They grow rapidly it's hard for any predator or predatory fish to control them UNLESS they're abundantly present" This tells us they can be controlled, how to create sufficient numbers (abundant) is the issue, not how fast they grow. No2. "It's very expensive to produce enough predators to actually have a control on baby carp" Again this tells us they can be controlled, now it just cost. Slot limits, catch limits, spawning closures all free. Perch and Walleye can be raised cheaply without a fish hatchery, and there's millions of dollars of tackle tax money for restoration of native fish available, no GLMRIS money needed. No 3 Poison must be approved by the govenrment at tremendous cost". Poison cost tremendous everytime it's used and only affects one spot, Predators one time cost, kill invasive for many years. No 4/5 "The problem with poisoning and electric fences is that it's not very sustainable" Funding stops "whatever control" stops. We can't control where the fish go, but we can control how many predators they run into! The only true long term control. If anyone would like to paste that article please do, my computer has issues with pasting and i'm just barely user friendly

Interesting read about these muscles and how they wipe out the food chain from the bottom up.

Take a look

http://www.thenewsherald.com/articles/2012/01/20/news/doc4f19cdea38889842971812.txt

Yes sir the mussels eat food, all invasives eat food of some kind. Iv'e had this chat with Nalepa, and others. If you follow the Goby spread map, it matches the diappearance of the dipoeia, both timeline and area. Gobies normally grow to 5 inches, growing to 10 inches, high energy food? Goby at 200 per square yard, would eat mussels instead of shrimp? All these invasives are finding zooplankton, spiny fleas, bloody shrimp etc... Nonetheless, what they eat is a moot point, and wastes a lot of time. We know they eat, lets focus on getting rid of them, they're invasive. It's hard to find another body of water where the mussels wiped out any other fish "practically overnight" I can't find any. The mussels are a drain on the ecosystem, agreed, lets get rid of them. We have predators for the mussels, we need more. I asked David Jude Goby expert way back how Zebra mussels and Gobies are controled where they come from. He said Predators, pollution, and disease. Lets look at what David said, Disease is too random, waiting until they get too many and starve is a bad plan. For the last 20 some years we have been cleaning up pollution, most of these invasives have exploded in that time. That leaves predators, how many predators we have depends on our actions. Increase predators decrease invasive species. A little restraint on our part goes a long way.

I could agree with you, however, that would mean we are both wrong

How so? Numbers is the key in all this,all fish invasive or not have no choice in the matter, we can't blame them, they feed and breed instinct. We are the only ones with a choice, to date our choices have been pretty poor. MDNR Special report 41 2007 page 8 No. 3 Prevent quality overfishing that is prevent excessive overharvest of large fish etc.... No4. Prevent ecomonic overfishing No.5 Prevent community overfishing ------- Prevent overfishing!

The legend overfishing allowed invasive species to thrive in the first place (lack of predators) caused by us. The Feds want everyone to be on hold until 2015-16 until thier asian carp study is done? We don't have to wait, we can restore our native fishery now. Waiting 5 years means the carp win, that is make it much harder to fix. Like you see down south now. We lose nothing with a slot limit, we gain all the way around, it just makes us more responsible, in our actions, that's all.

It's not only the DNR stating this FACT.

The DNR started it I believe, most just parrot the statement without asking questions. The facts are what we can see with our own eyes. All other native fish are coming back in Huron, without alewives and with zebra/quagga mussels, not seen in 40 years, documented by the MDNR and others. I do not see the mussels as a valid reason to explain what happened, I do see it as an excuse that holds no water. Regardless of what the DNR says, the results or truth does not match. But this is in the past, the alewives are gone, wont be back, we have new fish to fry heading our way, the worst invasive species of all. If invasive predator species can wipe out native fish, than native predator species can wipe them out back. Sufficient numbers is the key, slot limits help the home team stay in the game! No matter what size fish you keep,big or small that fish is out!

I am all for doing what is necessary to stop the spread of asian carp. That being said, I don't see a reasonable connection between a slot limit on walleye and accomplishing that end. If your trying to push for a slot limit, and I have also thought about it as well, then do it on its own merits, seperate from the asian carp issue. A slot limit would keep larger fish in the system longer, maybe resulting in more trophy fish caught down the road. The walleye fishery on Saginaw Bay/Lake Huron is already a formidable predator status, a slot won't do much to change that either way. The asian carp problem, and any initiative to go to a slot system are two seperate issues.

We have an invasive species problem, Asian Carp are part of that. We are not going to have Asian Carp problem, we have an Asian carp problem. Check the ASIAN CARP spread map USGS, we have an electric barrier in Chicago, a chain link fence in Eagle marsh, holding all that back, that's it. If we gear up/ restore and maintain our native fish/predators for Asian Carp control, we also control the other 186 odd invasive species. Everything goes back to overfishing/lack of predators, that allowed invasives to thrive in the first place, no matter how they got in. Yes, we should use slot limits on thier own merits, it's the right thing to do. Look at our past, we ain't so good at doing the right thing, just because! We can do the right thing and control the invasive problems if we work together. It all ties in, us, the carp, the ecosystem, look at the whole picture.

Thought you would like to know that alewive decline in Lake Huron wasn't due to predation, Both lakes are afflicted by invasive quagga and zebra mussels, which compete with lower food chain organisms for food. Particularly, the mussels’ hoarding of nutrients affected the alewives, the chief source of food for adult chinook salmon. Along with smaller year classes that didn't make it through the winter you have the demise of Lake Huron Alewive's preceding the salmon crash of huron.

Yes Sir, I am well aware of the DNR staments regarding that issue. Curious thing, is zebra mussels only seem to affect alewives and only in Lake Huron? By only reducing the Alewives main predators, (salmon) and in the middle of 100 trillion zebra/quagga mussels in Lake Michigan, the alewives have rebounded quite well. An article that just came out yesterday, in the Toledo Blade 1/22/12 ( Invader nears gate to Lake Erie) regarding Asian Carp. I quote, " In Lake Erie we will have more carp than the other four great lakes combined. Jeff Reutter Ohio Seas grant "They need the high nutrient conditions present in the western basin to thrive. We'll have far more than anyone else, if they get in" Lake Erie has zebra/quagga mussels, had them first, yet plenty of food? If the zebra mussels wiped out the alewives "practically overnight" as the DNR says, why haven't they done that elsewhere and to all the fish? Saginaw bay was the main spawning/ground nursery area for alewives, coincidence that the crash occured the same time as the waleye restoration? With respect, let's just say, i'm not sold it's all the alewives fault. They eat food, all invasives do eat something.

MDNR Fisheries special report 41 2007 Ecology, Management, and status of Walleye, sauger and Yellow Perch in Michigan. Please find and read this one. one quote "The presence of a high proportion of older adults and the oppotunity for a female to spawn more than more than once per lifetime, are biological safety factors that help buffer a population from enviromental instability and help insure perpetuity of the population" Pretty simple, slot limits help with this and cost nothing, doesn't change the limit either, just keeps more females in the game to reload it for next year, and the year after that etc... It also keeps predators in the game. Poison is a one use thing, it costs everytime you use poison. Native predators multiple use fish killer one time cost, or no cost, with natural recruitment! Environmentally friendly where poison is not. There is no downside to having a high/healthy native fish population, all downside healthy Asian Carp population.

Tom, You obviously did your homework on the subject. Is there walleye being planted in the Muskegon system? I know some people do well on Muskegon Lake. If what you say is true, maybe a slot limit should be tried where the natural reproduction is lacking. You haven't sold me yet on a State wide Slot Limit program, but I never close my mind to anything. I'm an ole dog that still tries new tricks. I'm not a biologist but I spend a lot of time on and around the Bay. The Bay has a watershed second to none. This watershed is what natural reproduction is all about. I don't even mind if the fish tagged on the Titt swim to Alpena. I love what we have and I hope my grandchildren and their grandchildren can experience what I have. Gotta Luv Dat Bay. Lord knows I do.

Keep in mind, the fishing in Saginaw bay now, is the result of restoring the Walleyes to self sustaining levels, and getting rid of the alewives (by predation of Walleyes) which feed much like Asian carp and don't grow too big, they had control for a very long time, only a healthy predator population got and keeps them in ckeck. Michigan outdoor news said catching a lot of little Walleyes, harder to catch keepers or big ones, not stunt according to Jim Baker. Probably because keepers are going home with sombody. Muskegon Lake Walleye fishing sucks, dumb luck mostly to catch one. Best fishing is Dec. Jan, middle of the night, if you have open water. Muskegon lake is stocked, at 1 inch, in June right when the lake is full of alewives. The Muskegon Walleye pond was started 1978, by the Muskegon steelheaders, they planted in July, a lot less, but big enough to fin clip. Fishing was good in the early 80's, 1985 DNR took the pond away from the Steeheaders, started stocking in June, Walleyes dropping ever since. I'd be happy if the DNR insists on June if they dump them in the swamp, instead of right into millions of alewives, but that's me.

If I may, I have some studies condensed hard copy, if anyone would like to post the mailing address of a bait shop near you, I'd be more than happy to send copies, no charge. I had a couple hundred copies printed. I have no idea where you guys/gals are, a bait shop can pass it out to more people.

I'll include a copy of barrier history as well.

If you feel you need permission from the bait shop owner please do. If your from out of state, no problem, principle is the same, problem is the same, for all of us.

Of course you're making the assumption that walleye will eat the carp. And from what you've stated

"Not to blow my own horn, but I got Carp Czar John Goss to admit that on record at the Saginaw meeting. The carp are already in the lake, we are waiting for the big bag, a spawn. This has been the pattern so far, they see nothing or a couple then bang, thousands of baby carp"

The carp are here already and we're just waiting for the explosion of them in our great lakes, well mainly SW Lake Michigan near Chicago?

Not sure how a slot limit on the Saginaw Bay would help control asian carp that are in our lakes in SW Lake Michigan......

I'd like to see the slot limit statewide, Walleyes in the Muskegon system haven't had a good natural spawn in over 50 years. Asian Carp are spineless prey, juveniles look just like baby shad walleyes and perch, eat shad. I doubt they will stop to ask if it's from China because Chinese food give them gas, they'll just eat them. We could spend more millions on studies, and waste more time. Looking at the whole lake I'd say west Michigan will be hit the hardest, most spawning/nursery area. But it doesn't matter where they get thier start, without predators or low predators they get a start. In just under 40 years Asian carp have spread over 1/2 of the U.S. this is not very long, out of 10,000 years. If the Asian Carp start spawning in Erie first, they'll repeat the path of the alewives, if they spawn in Lake Michigan they'll do it in reverse, but they'll be in Saginaw. They don't really know exactly where the Asian carp are. or how many. Having a healthy native predator population, makes the whole area a control. If you knew the history of the electric barrier, there wasn't much in the water to stop them, until recently, and 2.3 volts isn't high enough. Thier original tests said 4 volts was needed for all sizes, they even argued among themselves when the "new" study came out. There is no if they get in the lake, they will spread to all the lakes no matter which end they start at. Slot limits are a simple no cost thing we can do, to help our native fish fight back. Barrier costs are unsustainable, don't really do anything. Special poisons that don't exist yet, maybe never will, studies that require more study. This not an isolated incident, we have an invasive species/asian carp problem now, they let it go too long, before they did anything.

I can't get on board with the thought that a slot limit will solve the Asian Carp potential nightmare. I can however get on board with the sentiments that it is an issue that there are too many differing opinions and that more research and testing will utlimately take too long and interim the problem will extend into the great lakes and ensueing is the potential disaster that they could wipe out great lakes sport fishing. This will be a disaster caused by man, and I believe that it's high time that the powers that be get off of their keesters and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. We can theorize all we want, but in a practical world it seems that the revenue generated by the great lakes sport fishing community is pale in comparison to the shipping industry that uses the canal where asian carp infiltration will (if it has not already) occurred. Sure would be nice if we could get some officials not only to fight on our side regarding this issue, but to GET RESULTS. This has been an on going issue now for already too long, and the longer this issue persists, the more likely that great lakes sport fishing can put one foot after the other into the grave

We can be restoring native fish/predators while the Feds drag there feet, this does not interfere with any other Asian Carp/invasive species plans. Not to blow my own horn, but I got Carp Czar John Goss to admit that on record at the Saginaw meeting. The carp are already in the lake, we are waiting for the big bag, a spawn. This has been the pattern so far, they see nothing or a couple then bang, thousands of baby carp. Asian Carp can live 25+ years spawn 3 to 4 times a year, millions of eggs. So every fish that gets eaten before they can do that is important. "There is no comparision between that which is lost by not succeeding and that which is lost by not trying" Big fish eat little fish, is not a theory, plain fact. I can guarantee fish get hungry, can't gaurantee nothing with bubbles!

I am with you P1. I just don't think there will really be any cause and affect on the asian carp with a slot limit implemented on walleye. I think that is apples and oranges.

"Lack of predators" has been the standard statement, since our invasive problems started. Prior to us getting here, the lakes were teeming with fish that all got along just fine. Lake trout is not our only predator.