WALRANGER5

I recommend doing some research on alewives, they are not just prey, they are predators. invasive predators. It's illegal in vermont to transport alewives dead or alive. They eat plankton, all fish are considered plankton at some time.

I agree with keeping them out, but we're very bad at that. Now what you/and they say too many salmon/predators will wipe out the alewives. So Predators can wipe out/ control Asian Carp, (google Biotic-resistance) principle applies to all invasives good read. If the asian Carp get control of the spawning areas, that's the end of the alewives regardless of how many salmon there is, but they'll wipe the rest as well, while the salmon are out in the lake.

Yep, control of the spawning/nursery areas makes or breaks it. Asian carp (according to the experts) is the most efficient freshwater filter feeding fish in the world, they will be that here. Without or low predators, it will look here, what you see down south. A saltwater predator not much good against them.

Salmon are a coldwater fish, can't even survive in the backwater areas, where juvenile Asian carp will be. Most likely adults will move into Lake Michigan (as thier numbers increase) they will be too big, but they will control the plankton there, from micro size to larval fish. Alewives also eat zooplankton and larval fish, but this fact is largely ignored.

Please go to asiancarp.us Feds site. Released March 2012 Fishing Down the Bighead and silver carps, reducing the risk of invasion to the Great lakes. 2800 asian carp per mile, probably low because they didn't check backwaters and side channels. Nearly 100% of all fish over 16 inches, and are affecting native fish populations. Please keep in mind, this is after millions of pounds harvested. Plus ALL sizes must be harvested to reduce the population. Asian Carp have all the attributes to survive quite well here, they also eat larval native fish. The feds admit we have native predators for juvenile Asian Carp, we merely need sufficient numbers which we do not have, but could have. search (biotic resistance), predator type dont matter, numbers of matters.

Increasing an invasive species makes no sense, given the facts. Dan is right right if it's safe for Alewives it's extremely safe for Asian Carp. (lack of predators) which we have.

They had an asian Carp meeting yesterday in Bloomfield Minnesota MPR article, barriers wont work. But in a related article I found interesting (Zebra mussel population decline puzzles scientists MPR "surprising numbers of fish are eating zebra mussels " "some areas 86% reduction" Look at the whole picture, predator prey only works with enough predators!

A couple of facts I came across. Chicago Tribune 3/8/12 Illinois closes fishing at 2 lakes to battle carp. They drained AND poisoned these lakes to get rid of common carp, but they made a "carp comeback" basically just killing only makes it safer for spawning/recruitment for the ones you miss, which this just prove again, what carp control guys already knew would happen if you don't plant predators for baby carp. You can't drain AND poison our lakes and rivers, but we can make sure there's predators. Also New York Seagrant, Asian Carp are major plankton eaters, one expert reminds us, ALL fish start as a type of plankton (ichthyoplankton). There is no greater threat to our lakes, (besides us!)

Well guys, if you read the 2012 Asian Carp plan, you saw the map of where they can survive. The entire US and most of Canada. I have shared most of what I have learned, so what do we do now? If you count peer reveiwed, hundreds of biologists support native predators (biotic resistance) surviving the spawn attempt is the weakness Asian Carp share with every fish, and how invasive species restrict/control native fish. Either by starvation or direct predation. There is no way in heaven that having a healthy native fish population is bad for the environment. But you'd be surprised how many people will try to argue that point. Natures checks and balances are out of whack, and that's our fault. If you want to help, please write letters to the editor, supporting restoration of native fish/predators. Hit the outdoor mags. There is no "IF" they get in the lakes the only unknown is when. Without or low predators they will overrun quickly. They also eat native larval fish, further restricting native populations. Once they control the spawning/nursery areas ALL fish will be affected. We have tackle tax money available, we have the means, how we do it and costs are just details. The problem is want too. Given the facts, there is no logical reason not to restore our native fishery, which I thought was the law anyway.

If you would like to read the entire $50. million dollar 165 page 2012 Asian Carp plan. Go to asiancarp.us. Heavy on studies and technology. You can't beat nature with technology. Technology costs money, and we ain't got enough money, never will.

Not the point, Michigan salmon guys don't like lake trout because they don't fight hard enough. Wisconsin guys don't like like lake trout because they don't come close enough to thier side. this is not science based. An article yesterday from the toledo blade, a former Ohio DNR head said Asian Carp are one strike your out, if they get in, it's game over! I disagree. People think if we plug the Chicago river we'll be safe forever.

Alright gentlemen. Bottomline line is, there is 118 3 inch juvenile asian carp in a pound, 10 pounds of juveniles would be removing 1,180 invasive fish from the system. 10 pounds of adults is just one fish. So any efforts that target juvenile Asian carp would a thousand times more effective than harvesting pounds of adults. Using predators many times that. If we do this by the numbers, we can get them under control and keep them from becoming the dominate fish in the great lakes. Or we can do nothing and play, woulda,coulda, shoulda. Increasing/restoring the native/natural fish populations does not intefere with any other asian carp plans. We are asked to wait 5,10,even 20 years for various plans. They can argue about barriers, who gonna pay for what all day long, but that's going nowhere. There is no logical reason why we have to wait to pursue efforts the target, remove juvenile Asian Carp. Native predators is the most cost effective, and efficient method of reducing the Asian carp population. This would benefit everyone in the country not just this state. Or we can lose it all just because lake trout don't fight hard enough?

We have already done all this and more. Wisconsin Perch guys were just rejected again with over 90% support. I gave you the real reason we can't get a permit. " The DNR's are increasing/protecting the alewives" you can't increase predators (biotic resistance) and increase an invasive species at the same time. You have to chose one or the other. They have chosen the other. Thus protecting the alewives has made lake Michigan a safe haven for all invasive species, the proof and results are in the lake, all invasives are increasing and spreading. Once Asian Carp grow to big they can live 25+ years, we have no choice but to attack the juveniles, not my idea, thier numbers, thier studies. Waiting until we have 4,300 Asian Carp per mile before we get excited, would be silly.

Not enough food, slow growth, PCB, etc... many excuses that mean nothing The DNR said many times it was against the 1836 treaty as an excuse. At the MDNR Asian Carp meeting in Lansing, I asked the head Indian Derek Bailey if restoring native fish was against the 1836 treaty, and he said it wasn't. And even tho I announced that fact at the end of the meeting, during comments, for all to hear. My last permit request was rejected, and against the treaty was yet again among the excuses. The DNR's very first excuse was the marinas took all the weeds, Perch need weeds, true story.

I've been dealing with the DNR for the last 7 years, can't get a permit. 2 groups one from Wisconsin, one from Illinois have been trying to Restore the Perch for over 25 years,can't get a permit. The DNR's are increasing the alewives, there is no predator restoration. If you look at the results of the last 40 years, invasive species wise, we are going backwards, invasives are increasing, new ones surviving. Currently we couldn't plant enough native predators, Perch, walleye Pike and Muskie, unlimited invasive food out there. If I understand the biotic-resistance principle correctly, and I believe I do. The amount of invasive species control you get is only limited by how many native predators you use. If we ever had too many native fish,(a long way away) you just increase the limit. My fish farmer says we can raise millions of 2 inch Perch for $200. buck in a 3 acre pond. I would sponser 5 ponds myself. We can use this same this for walleyes as well. At 2 inches most native fish are past the need for zooplankton, and the invasives become the food, Ohio DNR figured that out. Very doable, there's millions in tackle tax money for native fish restoration, a slot limit and lower Perch limit would help keep high levels in place, (sustainable) as I said very doable. It's obvious we can't control where the Asian Carp go, but we can control how many predators they run into, or how much biotic-resistance they find. Hard to survive a spawn in a crowd! Follow me?

I E-mailed Jim Garvey Asian carp biologist yesterday, and asked him how many 3 inch Asian Carp would be in a pound. He passed me to Dave Glover Fisheries & Illinois Aquaculture Center, and he said 118. So 10 pounds would be 1,180 fish a 10 pound adult is one! So harvesting/removing 3 inch is a 1000 times more effective at reducing the Asian Carp population versus adult removal. Predators eating eggs and fry and 3 inch, millions of times more effective? A 10 pound Asian Carp is a small one!

What he said! It's very simple fellas, if Alewives, gobies, zebra mussels etc... invasives that never grow too big, are safe from predators in Lake Michigan, then Asian Carp are extremley safe in lake Michigan. The feds admit that we do have predators for Asian Carp, and restoring native predators does not interfere with any other Asian Carp plans. This is on record Saginaw Meeting. Since the FWS is already planting Asian Carp predators down south, we don't have to wait 10 years, to do something, and the worst thing that could happen, is more native fish! If barriers and rayguns don't work, we get a giant carp pond and beyond!

I'm sorry I do not know how to paste, my son has tried to teach me, when I try it goes who knows where. But I don't understand, when I google GLMRIS the site is at the top of the page, along with other GLMRIS related stuff just like any google search. Googling biotic-resistance or carp control for example gives lists of many studies. Forgive me if I explained it wrong. Googling for me is much quicker than typing the entire address. With respect, google GLMRIS them click on the GLMRIS site, no offence intended. I'm not that user friendly with computers, simple is all I know.

Well, a little light on comments. Alright Gentlemen, it's very simple. Duane Chapman, US Asian Carp expert, says "Asian Carp are the most efficient filter feeders in the world" this has been proven many times over. We had a filter feeder (planktivore) get into the lake once before. This fish overran and dominated the lakes and the native fish populations. It changed it's feeding/spawning habits as well. It did not grow to big for predators and only spawned once a year, yet was in control. Lack of predators (overfishing) was given as the main reason this invasive species took over. This fish was called alewife. Whether Asian Carp get a foothold in Lake Michigan or Erie/Huron all will be affected. Illinois seems to be gearing up to keep them, commercial fishing/skeet etc.. It's not hard to see what's going to happen. If you would like to help, google GLMRIS find the comment on controls, and please put restore native predators stock predators, or whatever words you like. They just sent me the last chance to comment notice, ends Feb 17th, ask your friends and neoghbors as well. Lake Michigan is wide open to be overrun, thus ground zero to spread to huron/saginaw bay. We can win this fight if we work together, and we have to win this fight!

Fun Fact, Came out yesterday, Illinois wants to make it legal, to shoot flyin carp, license required of course, starting in 2013. Now flyin carp skeet will probably be a blast, but will it help anything really? Just like commercial fishing, you have to wait until they're big enough to have any value. The big flaw is letting them get big on purpose, for a vary limited use/customer base. Turn the eggs fry and juveniles into Walleyes and Perch/predators then you got something! Bubbas with guns and fast boats, no worrys there!

Thanks Frank, I'm not trying to force anything on anybody either, the Feds the DNR asked for suggestions, and a retired FWS biologist told me if Asian Carp get in the lake to sell my boat! I don't want to sell my boat! Saginaw Bay WAS a prime spawning/ nursery area for the Alewives, Asian carp eat the same thing as alewives, (zooplankton) and zebra mussels, and can root in the mud for food, and larval fish to boot. The mussels and gobies etc... got thier start in the connecting waters, then spread inland, watch your bait buckets and bilge is a prudent thing to do. But it doesn't reduce invasive numbers, and hasn't seemed to slow them down much either. Reducing thier numbers, reduces the chances of transfer no matter how, boats, birds bait whatever. From Common caro control studies "In areas where carp have not yet reached a nuisance level, a dense predator base should be maintained to provide a high level of predation on young carp" Once asian carp get too big they are invulnerable to predators, if Saginaw bay gets full of adult Asian carp, they will control all the zooplankton down to micro size that only they can survive on. And any spawn is lunch (larval fish) protein is protein, got that from a Chinese expert guy, and "our" Asian Carp expert thinks so too, but he wants to do a study, of course he does. 100 pounds of Asian Carp adults could be just 2 fish, 100 pounds of eggs,fry or juveniles is million taken out before they get too big. But they can't eat em, if they ain't there, and that's what started the whole problem, overfishing and lack of predators.

Not trying to be a wise apple, I spent a lot of time breaking down these studies and asking biologists a lot of questions. Some studies you need the biologist secret decoder ring for, but with a Dik-sun-ary and a little help from Google, you can figure them out. Basic rules apply to everything, all these studies and facts, keep leading back to the same conclusion "lack of predators" this is not we don't have any, it's "lacking enough" the problem dictates the solution, every time. It's becoming very clear that we cannot control where Asian Carp go, but we can control how many predators they run into. Barriers only provide control in one spot, in Minnesota one proposed barrier they admit will just deflect them west. The new fast plan costs $3billion and take 10 years, the carp will be in Canada in 10 years! We have 180+ invasives and more coming they say, you can all see how the politics thing is working out. We have no control over politics either. We can't blame invasives they're just doing what nature programmed them to do, we are the only ones with a choice of actions. Hundreds of studies peer reveiwed by hundreds of biologists tell us what to do. Seems to be basic fish biology 101, for any fishery, or any fish. In 2004 they were warned that the temporary barrier would be useless in a year, they did nothing, there's no doubt in my mind the carp are in the lake. Many areas they didn't even know they were there, until they spawned. Once they spawn it goes fast, if you don't have enough predators. Predator levels control the spawn of most all fish, documented over and over, Saginaw Bay NO1 example. What we think a lot of Walleyes are, is probably just a fraction of how many were here before, we got here. We have a variable/defect in our system, (invasive species) that affects recruitment/spawn survival, they're winning because they have the numbers. The main reason they have the numbers is we don't want them, so they get no pressure from us. Native fish do. Slot limit may be a small thing, but every little bit helps. Check the ASIAN CARP SPREAD MAP USGS. then tell me we have asian carp under control. We have options it's our fault if we don't use them.

We used to go to Detroit every spring loved it, had a good time, met some great people, even won some money in the Pro-am once. But I have no love for traffic in Detroit, and Saginaw is closer. Allowing Females to spawn more than once a lifetime is in DNR studies, one excuse the DNR uses is cost, slot limit is free.

My friend likes hitting the smallies getting fat on gobies. I'm not talking just the bay, but all of Michigan. I look at the success stories from all over, slot limits are pretty simple, free, and you still get to fish. If the Asian Carp start spawning in lake Michigan, they will spread to Huron en masse, reverse of what the alewives did. We can't let them get a foothold anywhere, once they get too big, they live 25+ years, plenty of time to find a boyfriend, and that special moment! Keeping native fish populations high, makes the lakes useless to them, or at least difficult to survive in. Biotic resistance they call it, not my idea, I just agree with them, because it agrees with how nature works, predatory prey balance. Saginaw Bay was out of balance, alewives controled the spawn, and the Walleye population, and they don't grow too big. Restoring the Walleyes fixed that. There's a lot of guys don't know how to count when they get to Saginaw bay, they plan on catching all they can, a slot would put some restraint on them, at least protect the female spawners, to replace what they stole!

As the Feds say "it would just one more tool in the box" lack of predators is repeated over and over as the cause for all invasives thriving, we fished them out. Google (common carp control using predators), tons of stuff. The most vulnerable time for all fish is surviving the spawn, this includes the Asian Carp. when the bay kicks up, people can't fish. Say we get a season, beautiful weather every day, word gets out (already out) high fishing pressure, lots of fish gonna die! We can't count on bad wheather giving the fish a break. A slot limit is a constant benefit to the fish we can control. The "barriers" will not stop the Asian Carp.