Need help picking out a Stereo

[DangerDan]

This is what I installed. It's a pretty good sounding unit in all but it cost a bit. I run 2 house batts and a battery mgmt. system on my boat so the amps draining the batteries aren't really a problem. It depends on the sound your looking for. I think it's worth the cost to me so...

Stereo

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/244077/377%20710%201437/0/TV's%20&%20Stereos/Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/0/0?N=377%20710%201437&Ne=0&Ntt=TV's%20&%20Stereos&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&page=CategoryDisplayLevel1&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=5003&subdeptNum=3&classNum=10877

Amp

http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=218950&i=693ME400&tp=714

Front Speakers

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/136045/377%20710%201435/0/Speakers/Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/0/0?N=377%20710%201435&Ne=0&Ntt=Speakers&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&page=CategoryDisplayLevel1&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=5003&subdeptNum=3&classNum=435

Rear Speakers

http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=52300&i=1089623I&tp=91

I think the Bose and Infinities match up great for sound. The Bose handle highs & midrange very clearly while the infinities (with crossovers that are supplied) put out great bass. They are polypropelyne so the elements don't bother them. My unit also accepts my MP3. I added a little to it every year now it really rocks..

Cazz, I like that stereo.. Too bad all those goodies weren't offered when I bought mine. It was on sale and so I couldn't resist.

Nice unit.

[caznik]

Yep I allready got all my cranking rock n rolls stuff last week, but just baught two more 6x9 speakers just today.

This is what I happen to get:

http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=18581

$150.00

CD-R/RW ready

MP3 and WMA compatible with ID3-TAG display

18 FM/ 6 AM Presets

iPod control capability via optional EA1276

Z-Enhancer sound customization

MAGNA BASS EX dynamic bass enhancement

Built-in amplifier canceller

Detachable control panel

50W × 4 Built-in Amplifier

High visibility single line display

Rotary Volume Control

Front panel 3.5mm Auxiliary Input with Level Control

6ch/2V RCA Output

CeNET Control of: TV Tuner, 6-Disc CD Changer, Satellite Receiver and iPod

Bluetooth Interface ready (Optinal)

Meets ASTM B117

Meets ASTM D4329

HumiSeal Coated PCB

Sealed Stainless Steel Chassis

http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=19495

$59.00

Sony XS-GTX1640

6-1/2" 300W 4-way Car Speakers

Oversized 6-1/2" Highly Oriented Polyolefine (HOP) woofer with Santoprene rubber surround

1-1/2" High Density Layered Diaphragm (HDLD) balanced diaphragm midrange

4-way car speakers

1-1/2" HDLD Balanced Diaphragm Midrange

3/4" piezoelectric dome tweeter

1/2" piezoelectric dome supertweeter

Fits in 6.5" and 6.75" openings

Priced per pair

http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=18581

$49.00

Kenwood KFC-6972ie

6"x9" 450W 4-Way Car Speakers

-way 6"x9" speakers

Fiber-textured mica-injected polypropylene woofer

urethane surround

2-3/4" water-resistant midrange cone

13/16" PEI balanced dome tweeter composition

13/16" PEI dome super tweeter

4-ohm impedance

Top-mount Depth: 3 1/16

Bottom-mount Depth: 3 9/16

Priced per pair

[DangerDan]

I just noticed. I linked the wrong Infinities. (rear speakers) I bought the Kapas.

http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=52300&i=1086937I&tp=91

You got a lot of goods for a great price. I'm sure you'll enjoy fishing much more. I'm thinking you'll need an amp now...

[caznik]

I just noticed. I linked the wrong Infinities. (rear speakers) I bought the Kapas.

http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=52300&i=1086937I&tp=91

You got a lot of goods for a great price. I'm sure you'll enjoy fishing much more. I'm thinking you'll need an amp now...

ya my plans are to get a amp, but what kind and whitch one would be the better one for what I have. Also will my battery hold up for me. I will probly only use that radio no more than two hours a trip. You think I should get a new battery with 1000 amps.

Rich

[DangerDan]

The trick to using less voltage from your battery is a low impedance system. Say you use an amp that has 2 ohm capabililties, and 2ohm speakers, you get more power going to the speakers without having to crank so much power through the amp. 4 ohm speakers are the norm. Les resitance = less power needed. You can actually get more power out of your amp too. If you use an amp thats rated @ 4ohms and try to run 2 ohm speakers you could fry your amp though.

[caznik]

the secret to using less voltage is a low impedance system. Say you use an amp tha has 2 ohm capabililties, and 2 or 4 ohm speakers, you get more power going to the speakers without having to crank so much power through the amp. Les resitance = less power needed. You can actually get more power out of your amp too. If you use an amp thats rated @ 4ohms and try to run 2 ohm speakers you could fry your amp though.

Looks like all my new speakers have 4 ohms in them. So can I use a 4 ohm amp or use less than that. What brans should I get to?

Caz

[DangerDan]

Looks like all my new speakers have 4 ohms in them. So can I use a 4 ohm amp or use less than that. What brans should I get to?

Caz

you can use 2 ohm but it will cost more for the equipment. In reviewing your speaker specs I'd go with a 2 ohm system. You may need bass blockers for those 6 1/2" sonys. your speakers are indeed rated at 2 ohm so you can use an amp say 80 or 100w per channel.

While I've been adding to my system gradually, I knew what components I would be adding and how I wanted my wattage configured. For instance, My rear infinity kapas are rated for 110watts RMS but 330 peak. I actually have 150w of power capability through 2ohm but I don't run my stereo full blast so max I probably only push between 40 and 80watts max usually going to the speakers.

Now, my front speakers (the Bose) are 6 ohm. They are about as good a speaker as you can buy but are only rated for about ea 60 or 80watts RMS before clipping starts. by having a higher impedance I get "balance through design" not through adjustment though I still have the ability to adjust everything to my liking. In a matter of speaking I balance my speakers through impedance, then fine tune further adjustments. This gives me almost perfect response from my system. (Sorry, getting carried away)

As far as a brand, it depends on what you are trying to accomplish. You can power your speakers with Wally World amps so long as you don't over power your speakers.

I ran el cheapo amps from Walmart I dug out of my garage until I added a higher quality amp and my Infinity speakers. Just be careful. You have to understand that RMS and peak wattage mean totally different things. Though you can occaisionally go over the 80 watts you'll experience a serious drop in performance when you approach that level of power. Thats why I feel there is no need to overpower your system.

Middle of the line equipment will give you great performance without having to spend the extra coin.

Damn!!! this place beat my price by over 70 bucks.... Arrrrgh!

http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=15369

I'm thinkin Crutchfield sucks!!!

[DangerDan]

In reviewing your speaker specs I'd go with a 2 ohm system.

Scratch that... 4 ohms yes, you have 4 ohm speakers so you would do fine with a compatable Amplifier @ 4 ohms

[DangerDan]

You think I should get a new battery with 1000 amps.

Rich

It's not so much the amperage that you'll need as it is "reserve capacity" You'll want to try to find a battery that will give you plenty of reserve capacity, a decent battery switch, perhaps even a combiner.

[caznik]

Well when I went fishing the stereo worked very good and made Huntingfool dance all day long with the rap music that I played. BUT.....I noticed my compass now is not reading right. I am pretty sure that it is my big magnets under my dash that is causing it. Is there something that can block those big magnets so my compass will work right again. I get lost enough and without that compas it makes it worse.

Rich

[boomerang]

move the compass!!!! the easiest way to skin that cat!!! and YES BIG MAGNETS AND compasses...NO GOOD!!

[Priority1]

Move the compass Cazzzzzzz. And turn that @#%$@& radio down. I can hear it all the way over here.

Kind of the same subject. I tried to put a compass somewhere in my truck. There is so much electrical interference, that I couldn't find a decent spot where a regular compass would work.

[1mainiac]

May be a little late to chime in here but here are some thoughts. First speakers are rated by Impeadance not resistance. While most of Ohm's Law still applies in configureing them there are some subtle differances. Having spent most of my life as a sound engineer for dozens of small Rock, Country and Blues bands that many of you may have danced to over the years. THere is no such thing as too much power While yes you can actually melt voice coils I have done it the odds of overpowering a speaker are rare. What blows speakers is clipping and distortion both of which are caused by underpowering. As you turn up the volume most systems reach the saturation point about 1/2 volume or slightly above it. If that is not loud enough for you than you either need more effieciant speakers or more power. If you continue to turn the volume knob what you end up doing is pushing second and third order harmonics which lead to clipping and distortion followed by speaker failure. Most speakers are rated at 1 watt 1 meter SPL ratings and as a rule it takes dbl the power to get 3db more out of a speaker. So if your system runs at 100db at 100 watts you would need 200 more watts to get to 103db 400 more to get from there to 106db add 800 more to hit 109db 1600 more gets you to 112db ( which is a fairly average rock stage). THe nice thing we have now is most stereo displays allow us to listen to several differant speakers so set a stereo to a reasonable volume level and switch speakers till you find the best set you can afford. Get a amp that will double the max rating of the speaker without distortion and you will have a darn good setup. None of this will fix the compass but thats why I have 2 GPS units on board and if the tunes are cranking who cares if I'm lost.

Tight Lines

See ya at the docks

[DangerDan]

Based on passed experiences I'd tend to agree with the following:

http://forums.turbobricks.com/archive/index.php/t-44237.html

Overpowering the speaker is a no-no, and explained in simple physics and knowelege of an electrical circuit , power = v x a; and for a audio amplifier, the output is alternating current governed by the frequency of sound that the music contains.

Low frequencies contain the most peak current, so over driving the sub will cause didtortion in the voice coil of the cone or driver.

High frequencies on the other hand, require little amounts of current by comparison but have very high peak voltage and will usually cause excessive high frequency distortion before any speaker damage is done. It is the smaller diameters of the cone that produce the high's and larger diameters produce bass, driven by the excursion distance of the voice coil resonating the cone.

If the peak frequencies that are amplified exceed the spec's of the cone, the circuit, both amp and speaker will be subjected to damage casued by heating of the coil or mechanical limits of the cone material - RIP!!! Or more common in a sub, the coil seizes due to long periods of overpowering. Since heat is the cause of this, the coil requires more current which over taxes the amplifier, and will blow the amp if not protected.

Extended periods of overpowering can slowly degrade the cone material. Have you ever taken a piece of paper and folded it repeatedly? Eventually it tears apart easilly. This is what you're doing to your speaker by overpowering it.

Accurate speaker and amp rating are done in RMS watts, not peak watts, so disrgard any manufacturer's rating based on peak handling performance, because this is solely dependant on the music or alternating current distribution from the amp and music you choose to play.

RMS, or root mean square is the description of a balanced power distribution for a time weighted average across all frequencies the speaker is intended to reporduce, meaning this speaker or amp can handle X amount of power at X to XX frequecies over a given timed average interval.

Underpowering cannot produce distortion in itself. The audible difference in sound is apparent, as Doug mentions above, but it is due to the fact that different frequiencies take different power levels to achieve a uniform balanced decible lever out ot the speaker. So when the power is too low, the low and mid frequencies are not getting the correct excursion of the speaker cone to accurately produce those frequencies. The minimum RMS value is the lowest power that is recommended to produce a balanced flat frequency response from the speaker.

In general, the speaker should be able to handle far more power than the amp can put out. This way, speaker distortion never enters the picture, nor does overheating of the voice coil. This also ensures tha the amp doen't get overdriven, mostly because you would hear the amplifier disortion and turn it down before any amp damage is done. Also, turning up an amp and driving a speaker with noticable distortion can cause the speaker to be damaged because the alternating current for any given frequency gets out of phase with respect to another frequency. Think of it like one's pushing the cone while the other's pulling.

I would choose an amp with an RMS rating that is 60% of the speaker RMS rating.

It's a pretty interesting discussion on the issue.

[1mainiac]

Gotta love it when people quote theory. I guess I was wrong so my subs that are rated for 600 watts max only have a couple thousand hours on them with a 1200 watt bridged amp hooked to them and they have pretty much spent their entire life at concert volume levels how could this be. My low mid cabinets are rated for 150 w max and yet they have spent their entire life full blast with a 375 w amp driving them. Even my poor horns which are JBL 2425 drivers rated at 25w have spent a long life with a 100w amp driving them. So either Electrovoice JBL and Peavey have no idea how to properly rate their speakers or their is a flaw in that theory.

[DangerDan]

May be a little late to chime in here but here are some thoughts.

Yeah, your probably right, but thanks for trying though...

[DangerDan]

A little more on the subject.

http://community.crutchfield.com/forums/thread/31210.aspx

[1mainiac]

Pretty good article Dan however in the end he stated neither under powering nor overpowering will distroy the speaker which is correct. The reason I will allways insist on over powering is simple first I am smart enough and have very good ears that I have seldom blown speakers. For any of you who were at the Blues concert at Rockford this evening I was the bearded guy in jeans and a blue t shirt going back and forth between the stage and mixer during the first set. Gordy the owner of the sound company and long time friend asked me to come and find his EQ problem in the monitor system. Second and most important to the subject is to get good clean audio you need to set your gain structure correctly. This is done by keeping the volume knob turned down and minimizing EQ boost and letting the final amplifier do the work for most people a large final amp means very little boost from the volume knob will cause large voulume increases so unless you enjoy hearing your cones hammer you will avoid twisting the knob very far and your system will maintain adequate headroom to play the music espeacially with the dynamic range now found on CD's. The oppisite is true when using a smaller amp since you are now required to turn the volume up further to acheave the same volume level you increse second and third order harmonics and the smaller amp lacks the headroom to now manage the dynamic changes in music so the amp begins clipping and distortion is increased. Perhaps if you have a small enough amp you won't hurt the speakers similar to guitar amps where you have a 100w amp running a speaker bank capable of handling 600 watts. But that is a design to create and handle large amounts of clipping and distortion not exactly what I dream of listening to all day on every song. So just like not everyone can handle driving a blown big block not everyone can run big amps as for me give all the power you got I'll let off the gas if need be. So stay on the sidewalk and just play your IPOD cause when I wanna rock I like to feel the bass compress my chest. Thats all I got to say cause if the wife would let me I'd have it so loud the people on the pier in Grand Haven would be dancing to my tunes from Muskegon. Hmm if I put the wedges on the bow the amp rack in the cabin and a 10kw gen in the back wonder if Metalica at 131db would effect the fishing. Nope that would just be stupid but now I gotta dig out some of my old stereo gear and upgrade the boat tunes. Damn I should have ignored this subject now I am trying to figure out if I can mount a couple of my 15in subs on my boat. Ok I am just gonna stick to fishing which is why I came here to begin with.

Tight Lines

[DangerDan]

Ok I am just gonna stick to fishing which is why I came here to begin with.

Tight Lines

Yeah... Not so fast..

Let me torque your gourd for a bit. As I posted I'm running a set of 2ohm infinity kappas in the rear. The RMS (and I use this term loosley) are about 110w. My amp is rated to about 150w @ 2ohm and 100w @4ohm. I'm pleased with the sound I'm getting however when I push the amp I realize some distorion, (thats if I really push it). I'm running the majority of my music through an

mp3 player so it's very compressed. If I bump my gains up to where I get the bass I'm looking for it's just a little to much for the kappas but if I turn it down a bit I loose to much base (on some songs) and find myself re-adjusting. (Maybe I'm looking for too much) Regardless, the kappas are only designed for so much. We're talking a pretty fine line here.

My choices seem to be:

add another pair of kappas in series bumping the ohms up to 4 and cutting my wattage in half but creating more head room, Or... adding a pair of subs.

Now when I say add subs I'm not talking about 10s or 12s, I'm thinking 8s, more of a mid bass. The thing is installations in a cars and boats create so many variables and without knowing what everything is going to sound like before I cut holes takes a lot of thought.

I've used a little extra time to experiment. I've tried some baffling with fiberglass behind my kappas in the the bulkhead with marginal results. (it's a little better though) Many people wouldn't notice the difference I'm looking for but I do, and like an old friend once said, "If your stereo sounds good to you, its a good stereo." So, I continue contemplating.

I'll likely go with these subs.:

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_7272_Infinity+Reference+850W.html

Any thoughts?

[1mainiac]

Well I am not a expert on car stereo gear so I don't know all the specs for various brands. But here is one important spec to look at for bass see what the free air response range is this will tell you what a non inclosed speaker is capable of. A large portion of speaker design is in the cabinet proper cabinet design will increase the overall volume of a speaker however is does this by narrowing the freq range. For instance I have a set of EVM 12S speakers if I put them in a Fender Twin amp the are full range and will produce around 106db put them in a sealed cabinet like a Marshall and you will lose some of the upper freqs but they will get up to between 109 and 112db but put them in the tuned sub boxs that they are in and they have a useable freq range of about 80 to 1000hz and will crank out 121 to 124db install the step plates on the ports and they will run from 40 to 1000hz nearly flat eq wise at around 121db. That is pretty good for front load speakers with about a 60ft throw range. So try and remember that the installation and cabinet design is more important than any other aspect as cabinet design will effect freq range and timing more than any other thing you do to the system. Bass freqs are omnidirectional and do not even need to be multichannel so one good sub is all you should need in a small area. There are lots of crossover networks that provide a sum output for the subwoofer. Also keep in mind that the correct EQ setting changes as volume and accoustics change can't tell you how many times I have setup a perfect mix in a empty bar only to have it turn to mud when the room filled and humidity changed so remember a boat is not a sound lab so most of those lab specs will have very little to do with how it actually sounds only how much the componets cost. A thousand dollar set of speakers in a crappy location probably won't sound any better than a 20 dollar set of speakers in the same place. One other note that may help as you build a multi speaker system is that in a car and most likely on your boat you will be placeing the speakers in differant locations since I doubt you will be building a concert stack in your boat. You may find that changeing the phaseing on some of the speakers will improve the audio lets say you add a set of tweeters up on the dash and a nice sub under one of the seats odds are that you mid speakers will be closer to you than the others so reverse the wireing on them and see if it improves the sound.

Tight Lines

[1mainiac]

Hey Dan spent a little time on infinity website really like that speaker I would suggest a bandpass enclosure as it will really tighten it up and protect the speaker as well. Personally I would use a 35hz cutoff on the low end before the amp no sense wasting power down below that point. The upper will roll off sharply around 125hz so take your choice of limiting it there or maybe useing 150hz as a upper crossover point. Myself I would go with the 150hz crossover point and EQ out the rolloff taking more load off my low mid speakers. On the other hand if you are looking to get hard tight bottom and the other speakers can handle it drop it down to 120hz. Get the biggest amp you can I seriouslly doubt you will be able to stay in the boat at levels approaching speaker damage power wise which if my math in my head is right would be around 1200w at 127db or about like having a 747 engine running full out next to you. Rock on

Tight Lines

[caznik]

Hey guys,

Thank you all very much for helping me find a car stero and all the nice info on what to get.

Once again, thank you all for the very nice info and keep it up....

Caznik...

[DangerDan]

Hey Dan spent a little time on infinity website really like that speaker I would suggest a bandpass enclosure as it will really tighten it up and protect the speaker as well.

One of the variables I was talking about in the pervious post is the fact that normal enclosures are non-existant unless you want to count behind bulkheads and gunnel box compartments. space is still a premium as this is a fishing boat. It's a tricky deal installing in these areas but with a little consideration and fiberglass or polyfill and some sensitivity adjustments, after adding the subs I'll be able to get the sound I'm looking for. I think I have enough space and things look like they will work out nicely. 1200W amp? nah.... I'm thinking another 400w max. To be honest I'm a bit skeptical on manufacturer ratings anyways. In all at that point I'll be pulling about 40amps from my charging system (when I kick up the power) then and my alt. is rated for 94 amps which leaves me plenty of power to spare.

[1mainiac]

Dan that is another reason I sugested a band pass design first the speaker is fully enclosed so very little chance of weather getting to it. Second the design is very tolerant of changes to shape it is tuned by sealed volume of the speaker chamber against the volume of the port chamber and the size of the port. These cabinets are made in a lot of configurations and are very easy to build. Some of the Bass tube speakers are bandpass design I built a set years ago with single 15in speakers that were about the size of a bushel crate speaker was mounted diagnally on a board running corner to corner we put tops on them and used em for end tables I don't think any of my friends ever knew they were speakers. Getting the right amount of air volume on each side of the speaker and using the right size port will do wonders.

Good Luck

Jim

[DangerDan]

For my subs I'm looking at an empty gunnel compartment dimensionally about 30" x 27" x 5" deep. Just enough room to mount the sub in depth. This enclosure isn't sealed it has a passage for wiring to the transom/bulkhead. Like I say, a little poly fill and maybe a small port will do wonders. I'm not taking up any space though (this is only a 23' boat). It is what it is and will have to be designed around that. I'm pretty confident I'll get what I'm looking for.