WALRANGER5

In the June 18th Milwaukee Journal Sentinel Dan Egan, 10 fold increase in positive EDNA Asian Carp hits above the barrier. Regardless of where you stand on EDNA I would remind all of you Dr. David Jude only found one Goby in 1990!

Although I am very concerned about the fishery ( and all the fisheries in the region) is that I am just a fisherman. I am not a biologist. After speaking with Dan O'Keaf ,for a good length of time, I would trust his vote for what needs to be done. I believe that they have there finger on the pulse of this fishery and are better educated on the matter. I just go out and find where the concentrations of fish are high so I can catch a bunch:grin: I have no idea what is going on in the whole lake. As much as everyone complains about the DNR, it is amazing that there is always world class fishing in the Great

Lakes. These guys are doing a good job! I prefer to let them ( without my input)

From the Seagrant results "Lake Michigan and it's fish are shared resources" I have talked to Dan O'keefe several times, and many others, I did try. Forgive me if I splained it wrong. You cannot solve an invasive species problem by increasing an invasive species. PHD or not, that rule never chages.

Well, there are no alewives in Lake Huron but I still see a whole lot of zebra mussels. Same for Lake Erie. Sorry to tell you but the salmon are not going away without a fight from a whole lot of people, many who are members of this website. I haven't seen or heard anything about stocking alewives, just controlling the salmon population so that there is a balance between the two. If you want to debate the merits of certain species over others that's fine. But if you want to continue to try and bully people and brow beat them to your way of thinking it won't be tolerated. By the way, have you ever posted a fishing report or helped out a fellow angler with tips or techniques? Just asking because all I have seen from you is a lot of complaining. Try going fishing and then post a report to help out the other members of the website. It might make you feel better.

The native fishery is restoring, without alewives. I have not brow beaten anyone, on the contrary everyone is having the salmon forced on them, by what appears to be only 580 concerned anglers.

Please understand stand, if we lose the alewives, we only lose the salmon , not the whole big lake fishery.

If we lose to the Asian carp, we lose the big lake fishery, and the inland fisheries as well. They will spread inland just like the gobies and what they're doing down south. I am trying to help other "anglers" including you.

Save the alewife campaign??? Is that similar to your save the perch campaign??

Nope! Restoring the native fish population, (Perch included) is what we're all supposed to be working towards.

According to the experts a diverse native fishery is more resistant to invasive species, they call it (biotic-resistance) in sufficent numbers even zebra mussel populations can be controlled. This alewife survey "too many predators (salmon) will wipe out the alewives" same same, big fish eat litte fish.....

The Seagrant 2012 Lake Michigan salmon stocking survey results, paragraph 2

" The primary purpose of the survey, and the presceding outreach to stakeholders, was to evaluate stocking options on a lakewide basis "in recognition of the FACT that Lake Michigan and it's fish are shared resources"

This "plan" is to refill the lakes with alewives, which by predation on native larval fish (Perch walleye ect..) destroys the "native shared fish resource" for everyone else. Sorry, that's the way it is. Perch eat all the invasives we have now will eat baby Asian carp all day long, but they also eat alewives. So we can't have any bio-tic resistance to any invasive species because that would affect the predator prey balance on the alewives! Some people dont want to share the resource, it's all about them.

Sacrificing an entire natural ecosystem for one fish, is beyond selfish.

The survey was not about measuring the economic impact of the salmon and trout fishery on Lk Mich.

If you look at the number of people who book charter trips each year, and the number of registered members at this and other salmon fishing websites, you'll have a more accurate gauge on the economic value and impact of the Lk Mich salmon fishery.

With respect, this "save the alewives" survey to avoid a "crisis" only generated minimal interest in saving the alewives/salmon. "Billions of dollars" worth of invisible "stakeholders" either didn't care or wern't there in the first place. Regardless this was a vote to increase an invasive species, (alewives) nothing more.

Only 580 people from all 4 states took the survey, only 271 from Michigan cared what happens to the alewives. This does not indicate "billion of dollars" in interest in keeping the salmon, not by any stretch of the imagination.

I think these are the links your looking for.

http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=551

http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/FactSheet.aspx?speciesID=549

Yep, that be it, Thank You Sir for your help.

Can you just link me to the map? I tried to find it but I am unable to follow directions.

I'm not that user friendly, pasting wont work for me (My son has tried to teach me). But I don't understand I just google (asian carp spread map USGS) and there's the page with the sites. You can do this for all invasive species. The USGS is tracking them all. Google (common carp control using native predators) lots of interesting studies. If someone can paste them please do. I google most every thing.

Some recent things about the Asian Carp you all should be aware of, your paying for it. please go to asiancarp.us, and find (fishing down the bighead and silver carps) 100% of fish over 16 inches etc... Find Asian carp spread map USGS released 5/24/2012 see what the "barrier" is supposed to stop.

The EPA is going to form yet another "advisory" committee for the great lakes thier first they say.

The feds admit we have native predators for juvenile asian carp, and can control them,but they have to be abundant.

The asian carp are very real, and have all the attributes to to very well here, to think otherwise would be irresponsible.

If they get a foothold in Lake Michigan, we have a carp pond deluxe!

You may also want to check the recent Goby spread Map USGS, that's just plain sad!

Loss of energy transfer from deep water back upward into the fish community(alewife,yellow perch, lake whitefish,burbot,lake herring, etc.) from the displacement of Diporeia sp. by Dreissend mussels (primarily Quagga sp., but secondarily Zebra mussels inshore), as well as related spawning success and growth declines in the forage fish community are what is driving the majority of problem in Lake Michigan. Steelhead AND brown trout do feed on alewife as well, but not to the level or degree that chinook and coho do, plus they cost a lot more to produce via the hatchery system. Estimates of immigrant Chinook from Lake Huron, as well as wild origin fish from Lake Michigan tributaries peg the Chinook annual input figure (stocked fish plus wild fish) at over 8 million fish per year, a value that exceeds the largest lakewide Chinook plant figure from 1987. Contrast this figure against a forage base that is a third of values recorded in the pre-BKD era on Lake Michigan.

One other point to keep in mind, you are actually not recommended to consume the "native" salmonid (lake trout) at legal sizes in Lake Michigan(see fish consumption advisory). From where I sit, this represents nearly forty years of failed effort and wasted dollars to rehabilitate lake trout stocks. largely via Federal bullying of State level fish and game agencies. But then, again, the strain being planted is not native to the Great Lakes, so it is a bit of a stretch to call them a native to begin with.

When biologists refer to this as a "top down" (too much foraging pressure on the remaining forage fish base and a "bottom up" (too little nutrient/energy transfer at the lower end of the food web back into the forage fish community, this is what they are referring to.

Alewife are a major consumer of larval fish of several species (lake trout, yellow perch, burbot, lake herring, bloater, emerald shiners, etc.). Abundant alewife stocks would likely serve as an initial "check" on Asian Carp expansion, until their numbers reached values where exponential growth of the populaiton would begin to occur.

Thank you for pointing out alewife are major consumers of larval fish. Will alewives eat larval Asian carp? Sure if the carp spawn in june when the alewives come into spawn, the other 2 or 3 times they spawn the alewives will be out in the lake, salmon can't survive in the warm spawning areas, so Asian Carp have the advantage, as do the other freshwater invasive species, now spreading across the state and beyond. Growing too big for predators, protects thier females, and they have 20+ years to wait for "the right conditions" attacking or making the near shore spawning areas useless to them (lots of predators, no room at the inn), is our best bet at controlling them. This has been proven many times with common carp. Lack of predators allowed alewives etc.... There is no such thing as a safe level of alewives or any other invasive species. I was asked not to talk about Asian carp, but you asked. If the Asian carp get control of the spawning/nursery areas, it wont matter how many salmon you cut or stock!

There was 655 that took the survey.

Thank you.

Nobody knows how many people took the salmon survey?

Anybody know how many people took the stocking cuts survey?

This thread was started for anglers to share their imput for salmon stocking stratagies. It was not started to talk about asian carp. Please keep it on track.

As you wish. However this is my imput on stocking stratagies. Filling Lake Michigan back up with alewives, by any means, stocking cuts, planting (some are calling for planting alewives) is not in the publics and the lakes best interest, and will be a major factor in whether or not the Asian Carp can thrive in our lakes. Sacrificing an entire Great Lake and connecting waters for one non-native fish, is not what I'd call a good idea.

You are leaving a few important parts out on the food web , the diphtheria, certain types of plankton , and others that the lake needs to host native and non native species . Its not that the alewives are going away , its that all the forage is. The food for the prey is missing, the quagula muscles and zebra muscles are filtering out all the important organisms needed by alewives, perch , smelt etc.

There are all type of factors that come into play hear, Ice conditions , weather, water temps, Cloudy a very long list . You have to look at the bigger picture. even if you took out Chinook Salmon from the picture and the Alewives there is still a problem. quagula muscles are very efficient at filtering out everything from the water. and proficient at it. Why do you think that the lake is so clear?

Years ago there was a great fishery out on the lake , people used to use large seine nets for Smelt. Perch was commercially fished out on the lake . There is a ballance to eveything out there and it keeps changing. Are Brown Trout Native? Steelhead? Splake?Coho?

All I can say is don't let Lake Michigan Crash like Lake Huron. Your talking about a 8 to 10 Billion dollar fishery, That would leave a giant hole in the economy that Wisconsin , Michigan, Illinois, or Indiana share. If they stopped stocking Chinook we as a group would find other fish to chase , but think of the Jobs the would be lost not just the charter captains, the Bait store down the street, how about the marinas the list goes on.There are four options for reduced stocking IF NEEDED! will be implemented. Please make an informed decision . Make sure you contact your DNR and make your voice heard, they will make the decisions we don't .

With respect, the salmon are not worth any billion, let alone 8 to 10. I stand behind what I said. Have a nice day.

Tom,

Can you perhaps clarify for me your position on this issue? I'm trying to make sure I understand the point you are trying to make. Is it your belief that if the alewives collapse taking with it the salmon population, with then the perch and walleye become the dominant predators that this would help reduce/eliminate the zebra/quagga mussel and Asian carp problem?

Respectfully,

- Senez

Yes Sir, the natural "biotic-resistance" of a body of water is dependant on having abundant/sufficient numbers of predators. They netted off areas and the "predators" wiped out the zebra mussels in a short time. Perch feed heavily on zebra mussels, thus abundant/sufficient numbers.....

Perch and Walleye eat shad, baby Asian Carp look dead nuts like baby shad, they will not ask if they're from China, they'll just eat them. Salmon cannot survive in the warmwater spawning/nursery areas, Native fish/predators can.

I would point out that the DNR says "once you get an invasive species, you can never get rid of it" yet they just told the whole world, too many predators (salmon) will wipe out the alewives!

Having our so called top predator out in the middle of lake Michigan, and only eating one fish, both non native, isn't helping control any other invasive species, because they can't. They have to "balance" all the predators to protect the alewives, this includes native fish.

A simple switch to steelhead and Browns, not dependant on alewives, keeps the big lake fishery, yet can co-exist with a healthy native fish population, salmon cannot.

We can't control where the asian Carp go, but we can control how many predators they run into, make the lakes useless to them, (biotic-resistance) but any biotic-resistance would affect the alewife/salmon plan, soooooo....

the lake and connecting waters have to be invasive species safe. The proofs in the lake. I'm tired of fishing for leftovers, and I want my grand kids and thier kids etc... to be able to go fishing and not wind up with a carp pond. Google (biotic-resistance native predators) not my idea, fish science, I just agree, but all useless if alewives continue to come first, last, and always!

Guys I'm as tired of talking about invasive species as some of you are hearing it. All we want to do is restore the Perch and Walleye in West Michigan, Lake Michigan. I would much rather spend my time Coordinating those efforts than pointing out the flaws in the system, that wont let us do that. We have yet to ask for money, we only require a permit, the DNR has excuses and no logical reasons to stop us. We want to be proactive with the Asian Carp, and I assure you they are very real, we have native predators for them, the Feds admit this, and can be controlled with predators, none happen to be salmon or trout, and there's nothing anyone can do about that.

Get some buddys together take a boat, any boat, go down to Bath Illinois and go for a boat ride, just go for a ride! Then perhaps you'll see, the Asian Carp have already shown us what's going to happen here, if we continue with the "Lack of predators" program to protect the alewives, that protects them all. We have to face the facts, reality.

These chat rooms are supposed to be people who care about our fishing resource, forgive me if that's not the case.

Sincerely, Tom

Here is one thing to remember , and that is Chinook Salmon prefer Alewives , but will eat other food, Yes the Salmon were put here to control the Alewives but with out the alewives we would not have a Chinook fishery. Read the info available at Seagrant .

The biggest problem is that the clear water caused buy first the Zebra muscles then quagula muscles , the clear water is missing the part of the food web.

If you could get rid of the quagga muscles you wouldn't' have this problem .

The fact is chinook need a minimum of 123 pounds of Alewives PER fish to hit 17 pounds in 3 years, no other fish only salmon. Alewives are an invasive species, that are detrimental to the natural/native environment ecosystem, no matter how you slice it. 123 times x number of salmon times 3/4 year classes, add for size and allow for "extra" salmon from Huron and spawning = A very damaged natural/native fishery. We have to sacrifice, the entire natural ecosystem for one fish, that requires a special diet to survive. Do some people make money off salmon? Yep! Some people are making money off Asian carp, money don't make it a good thing, except for "some" people. The 123 pound rule will never change If we keep the Chinook. We have native predators for zebra/quagga mussels and gobies etc.... but they also eat alewives, so perhaps you can see the conflict of interest, or the major flaw in the alewife/salmon plan?

Please go to asiancarp.us, and find the recent study fishing down the bighead and silver carp.

Still 2800 per mile, need to affect small ones to do any good etc.....

Please research alewives before you vote to increase them, by whatever means. Alewives are an invasive species, dependant on our natural/native fishery (predators) be kept low for them to survive. Alewives are also predators of zooplankton and native larval fish.

You cannot solve an invasive species problem, by increasing an invasive species.

If there was a way to harvest zebra mussels they could be boiled salted and fed to inmates like pistachios. A nice little snack. Another invasive species put to good use.

Run them thru a Perch, you have a nicer little snack1

Run Asian Carp thru either Perch or Walleye, much better than Asian Carp on a shingle!

This will be my last post on this topic. This is considered a helpful and informative forum, not an argue and bash forum. I do not, however, believe people should be given incorrect information.

I would like to point out alewife ARE NOT predatory fish. They are distinctly classified as a "baitfish." Classifying them as a predatory fish would be like classifying grass as a predator because it absorbs nutrients from the ground. Yes alewife do feed on larva. But their MAIN forage is that of plankton.

Secondly, white perch are a feeder fish for walleye and lake trout. Hence the take off of the two species. White perch have also been prevalent since the 1960's during the peak of the alewife boom.

Thirdly, Asian carp have no natural predators in north america. Period. Trying to eradicate them by introducing another species is just not an option. Our native fish WILL NOT handle the issue. These fish reproduce much too fast, and grow MUCH too fast. They will achieve adult hood much too fast for any of our species of fish in the Great Lakes to feed on them. Big heads alone can grow up to 12 pounds per year!!!!

Again, our native species have NO CHANCE at controlling asian carp.

Currently there is only one proposed solution to eradicating the species if they do establish in our lakes, and this is trying to impede access to their spawning grounds. All species of asian carp are very particular about their spawning rituals. But if they become establish, that could turn into an extremely long cycle.

As far as turning towards browns and steelhead as a sustainable sport fishery, that is NOT an option without alewives. This is clearly pointed out with the crash of Lake Huron. Both species depend heavily on the alewife population in lake michigan(as they did in lake huron). Currently there has been a slight uptick in the numbers of both species in lake huron, but this is largly due to the large increase in the smelt population, which MAY be able to sustain a decent population of both species. That is yet to be seen.

I will again state that i believe that the alewife issue, and the invasion of asian carp are separate issues. Right now trying to sustain our alewife population is number one in keeping a strong salmon fishery. This of course is short term in the big picture.

For the longevity of our fishery, and ALL fisheries asian carp HAVE to be stopped from establishing within the great lakes.

Again i strongly support the cuts of salmon plants in upcoming years. In 2006 we received cuts in lake michigan. This may have been absolutely perfect timing. 2008 was an extremely bad year for adult kings, but numbers and size have since rebounded. Most around the lake, i believe, will agree.

I truly wish this type of effort, research, and thought was put into Lake Huron before the crash!

With respect, The feds admit we have native predators for Asian Carp,

and restoring native fish does not interfere with any other asian carp plans. Steelhead and Browns are not native but NOT dependant on alewives, proven in Lake Erie. One fed says the carp can be controlled, but the predators have to be abundant (sufficient) to do the job. (Predator-prey balance-ratio) same same different fish. Predator type only has to be one that eats them, numbers is the key, proven in common carp studies, "stocking of predators essential after removal of adult carp, for predation on young carp" being proven in Illinois as we speak, they harvest adults the ones they miss just reload, sans predators, you just reduced the competition, or predators if killed poison.

Sorry Mike,

I shouldn't have put your name in the direct heading. Nor directed the response towards you.

The post was more as a general information post.

I've spent a lot of time both in college as well as with local fishery biologist learning, and studying as much as I possibly could.

Unfortunately I was much apart of the suffrage that went along with the crash in Lake Huron.

It's terrifying to me personally that the extinction of our salmon fishery as we know it, is a very real possibility.

Again i apologize.

With respect, the extinction of all our fisheries are at risk, our native fish have a very real chance at controlling/ minimizing the Asian Carp and the other 180 invasives. Are you willing to risk it all for one fish? Would switching to steelhead/browns really kill you?

Here is a link to the stocking conference, the two videos in the linked webpage are very informative. You can participate in the conference in person or online if you pre-regisiter.

http://www.miseagrant.umich.edu/fisheries/stocking/index.html

Here is a summary of the stocking cut proposals that will be discussed. The DNR will be taking public comments on these proposals for a number of months until a final decision is made:

Here are the options that will be presented and discussed at the meeting. Pretty much all the other information that will be presented is on the Michigan Sea Grant Web site.

1.

Reduce Chinook salmon stocking lake-wide by 50% and evaluate after five

years.

•

This option follows our existing policy to make a change, evaluate the results

over five years, and come back to the public for future changes.

2. Reduce Chinook salmon stocking lake-wide by 50% and make additional

reductions to stocking if weight of age-3 Chinook salmon is below 7 kg (15.4

lbs) or increase stocking if weight of age-3 Chinook salmon is above 8 kg

(17.6 lbs).

•

This option uses Chinook salmon weight as an indicator of forage abundance

and fish health to determine when stocking changes are necessary. Agencies

would make changes more often than every five years (i.e., changes could

occur after 2, 3 or 4 years).

3. Reduce Chinook salmon stocking lake-wide by 30% and a mix of coho

salmon, steelhead, and brown trout by 10% and make additional reductions

to stocking if weight of age- 3 Chinook salmon is below 7 kg (15.4 lbs) or

increase stocking if weight of age-3 Chinook salmon is above 8 kg (17.6 lbs).

•

This option uses Chinook salmon weight as an indicator of forage abundance

and fish health to determine when stocking changes are necessary. Agencies

would make changes more often than every five years (i.e., changes could

occur after 2, 3 or 4 years).

•

Reducing the stocking of other species reduces predation and maintains higher

Chinook abundance while protecting lake trout for rehabilitation purposes.

4. Reduce Chinook salmon stocking lake-wide by 30% and a mix of other

salmon and trout species (coho salmon, steelhead, brown trout, and lake

trout) by 10% and make additional reductions to stocking if weight of age-3

Chinook salmon is below 7 kg (15.4 lbs) or increase stocking if weight of age-

3 Chinook salmon is above 8 kg (17.6 lbs).

•

This option uses Chinook salmon weight as an indicator of forage abundance

and fish health to determine when stocking changes are necessary. Agencies

would make changes more often than every five years (i.e., changes could

occur after 2, 3 or 4 years).

•

Reducing the stocking of other species reduces predation and maintains higher

Chinook abundance.

They recently found the invasive white perch are increasing and spreading into lake Michigan, i'm sure they are eating alewives as well, (no reason not too) I catch them trolling 7 inch cranks. they also eat fish eggs, alewives don't gaurd thier eggs and they spawn right on top of the invasive white Perch, and gobies as well. How do we reduce these other predators, to "balance" things?

No need to apologize. Asian carp are a huge concern!

The government needs to get off their ass and be proactive instead of reactive! The asian carp are knocking on the door to get into the Great Lakes.......if not already here! We do not have time to wait for a 2 year study to be done before anything gets done.

Actually 2015 maybe 2016, I participated in a GLMRIS confrence call, then proposals have to be presented to congress, to vote on, 2020 maybe? The Fed Asian Carp team are non-binding advisory, they have no power to implement anything, (I asked). We have no control over politics or how the carp will get in. We can control how many predators they run into, and thier impact, and make it very hard for them to survive in our lakes. This is basic fish biology, (predator prey balance) does not just apply to salmon and alewives, it applies to the whole ball a wax!