Play Dough

Low light periods, I favor Moonshine.  Daylight, my preference is Dreamweaver but I'm not shy about using Wolverine or Stinger spoons either.  

38 minutes ago, pyt212 said:

Actually no to just being a vessel underway. You are inhibited just by the fact you can sustain damage to your vessel and gear. You could say the same about commercial netting operations as well, they can maneuver just how much damage will occur. CG agrees that if you damage your equipment or vessel trying to maneuver away from someone it proves you are restricted in maneuverability.   Any violent turning with rigggers can cause cables into prop etc. Heck I know enough boats where this has happened just from heavy currents. Having 4 downriggers down and multiple long lines such as copper, wire can cause damage to your gear and even your vessel if you had to "escape" from another vessel. The key component from even telephone discussions was that how much gear you had out to prove you would sustain damage to your gear and vessel.  The CG recognizes this potential risk and has provided suggestions to possibly alleviate encounters with other vessels that are clueless and since they are the authority on navigation, I will accept their position on it.

OK...no real argument, that's just the explanation I've always received.  So in light of your restricted maneuverability, do you display the appropriate shapes or lights to indicate your condition?  If not, I would contend that according to the rules referenced in the pdf you supplied, you are indeed a vessel underway.  It appears the rules get a little vague based on a couple sentences in the pdf and that just because you're pulling lead core does not in itself necessarily qualify as restricted maneuverability based on the last phrase "based on your particular circumstances at that given time..."  I don't know...in 40 years of boating on both sides of the issue (cruising and trolling) I can't say I've really had too many issues with this.  Maybe it's just because I'll be the first to flinch when it comes to being on a collision course.

On 4/2/2019 at 3:20 PM, pyt212 said:

Here is the email I received from CG back in 2012. Commercial fishing vessel definition does not include pleasure craft is why I asked for clarity from the CG. The key point is having restricted maneuverability such as in trolling long copper, lead core, wire etc. Commercial fishing flies the flag etc but we can also fly appropriate with specific lighting per Rule 26 as long as it is recognized to be severely limited in ability to maneuver. My whole issue back then was the constant sailboat ignorance of tacking directly into me without consequence. I had further discussions with the CG and best is to obviously avoid at all cost but also video for formal complaint against a specific vessel.

The other issue of right of way trolling with other trollers is always going to be a hassle. I would hope courtesy would carry the day when the fleet is parallel to the shore to only pick the time to trolling inward when there is a reasonable space so long lines on each boat are clear from each other. It doesn't hurt to adjust speeds to be courteous and no one "owns" a specific trolling line on your GPS. If each boats moves slightly, everyone can be "happy" with the result. But unfortunately not the case a whole lot of times. Plotter lines seem to become possessive and end up with GPS rage which really can be interesting after dark.

The funny part about combat fishing is we have done much better away from traffic of the fleet anyway.

But one of the discussions I had with CG should there be a recognition of the trolling restricted maneuverability in the regulation. The answer was to formally request it up through the legal request process which I decided not to pursue.

Thoughts?

 

 

201904.02.Redacted.CG.Opinion.pdf

My understanding of interpretations of the regulations is that the trolling gear used in our type of fishing does not qualify as restricting maneuverability.  It's a stretch, in my mind, that the lines deployed inhibit the ability to turn or stop a vessel.  Certainly, your lines may foul, but that isn't a consideration in the rules...only in common sense and courtesy.  Any ruling I've ever seen clearly indicated a Great Lakes troller was nothing less than a vessel underway.  That's my take on it.

On 1/15/2019 at 9:19 AM, dan agnello said:

Usually the deeper you fish the shorter the lead.

If you are fishing say 60' down around 20'-25' lead; say 100' around 10'. My 2 cents worth, and some days you can throw this out the window.

But, like fishing bud Sea Eagle says  with SWR riggers you have to let out the lead before you connect the release to the line. So no matter what depth you would be at least 20' back for  2 color SWR and 30' for 3 colors.

Have a great 2019 season.

To clarify...a lead core color is 10 yards, so 2 color is 60' of line, 3 color is 90'.

Michigan Out-of-Doors did a segment last week on the Manistee and Muskegon with some success on both species.  The little bit I watched didn't seem to indicate lights out fishing but they did have action.  You can view that episode on their website.

Having the pilot and GPS linked was a nice convenience during a cruise.  I rarely used the features locally other than when I was running to/from the port to just have experience with the operation of the features.

When I had single I/O boats, I was towed twice.  Once a failed coupler, once for a timing chain failure.  Both incidents occurred where commercial towing was available.  That was no problem but very expensive if not insured for that (something to the tune of $200/hour many years ago).  If you have no alternate source of power and need assistance, expect to wait quite some time if depending on the USCG.  They will first broadcast a marine assistance request and wait for a volunteer to assist.  If you are in a port with commercial towing available, you will be referred to that service.  Tow insurance is cheap and I'd recommend that service to anyone boating on the Great Lakes.  Some coverages will even cover the $100 bill you give to "Joe Fisherman" for his trouble to tow you in.  A kicker saves hours on a V8 and provides emergency power, but I think I'd still carry the towing coverage.

Diawa Wilderness series is what I liked for riggers.  Very inexpensive and the closest in action that I found to the original Daiwa "Great Lakes System" rods I used back in the '70s.  I have a mix of Shimano, Daiwa, and Okuma rods for divers, cores and flat lines based on the action I prefer.   I never found it necessary to spend a lot of money on a rod.  

1 hour ago, jackpinesavage said:

So what weight is generally used for leadcore in the greatlakes?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Great Lakes Fisherman Mobile App
 

Probably most will use somewhere around the 30# test depending on the brand...some are 27#, some 36#.  These "weights" refer to pound test of the nylon sheath and not lead weight so use what you're comfortable with.  A few years ago,  I would have been comfortable with 18# but there seems to be enough sizable fish now that I'd likely not go there.  There are some "micro" lead cores on the market that claim to allow your lure to run deeper than standard lead core.  I did a little testing with that a few years ago and didn't see any difference between the two products using a clip on fish hawk depth meter.  The micro lead does take up less space on a reel so does have a advantage in that sense.

I have a length of 30# mono between braid backing and the lead core to attach to the in line board.  Let out the lead (all that you have on that set up, ie, full core, half core, three color, etc.) clip to the board and deploy the board to the desired distance from the boat.  Typically, no weight is attached but a snap weight or something like a Michigan Stinger Dive Bomb could be used to increase depth.  

Very few run boards off a mast system for salmon.  Most use Church Walleye or Off Shore in line boards pulling various lengths of lead core and copper line.  

19 hours ago, dan agnello said:

DNR has not put other two docks in at BH DNR launch. Just the one that's probably bed in there all winter for steelheaders. Our tax dollars at work; BS. I'll try and call regional office which I believe is in Gobles.

Wow...you would have had big issues back in the day when we waited a couple hours to launch at the Platte River when this salmon thing all began.

Good fishing.  Nice to hear there has been some success.

There's certainly a risk at this time of the year.  It can still be cold and it's not at all unusual to get a major wet & heavy snowfall late March or early April.  Just depends on your willingness to accept the risk and pay the $$$ and lost time should the weather turn for the worst.  If you live in the vicinity of the marina and can get to the boat should a night or two of cold occur, you could put a trouble light in the bilge to heat it up enough.  Of course that is trusting the light/heat/power source doesn't fail when you're not there.  Outboard trailer boaters definitely have an advantage this time of year.

Last weekend of April for me.  I was never slipped near my residence so never wanted to risk freezing of the motor or cabin fresh water systems.  I can't imagine having to trace a leak somewhere between the cabin and bilge in a split water line.  A couple extra weeks of boating isn't worth the risk to me...and I've seen plenty of snow on boats around the middle of April in the past.

Is that a piece of red yarn on the hook? Is that done to all the spoons you were using or just the one that got hit 7 times?

Paint sealer? Not sure that really does any good over the clear coat finishes used today. Wax is probably as much a "feel good" thing as anything else as well.

Yeah, I've done that more than once. I'd like to claim that it's due to age and my "sometimers" disease but it started 20 years ago. Hooked the marina breakwall once when entering the harbor with a lure trailing the boat by a couple hundred feet. Reel started singing when I turned the corner and the lure didn't. The ultimate was taking off with a cannonball still in the water off an old Riviera rigger. Turned the drag system to dust in no time. Only did that once. The screeching of the rigger drag signaled me just in time to turn around and see the cable snap at 30mph. I have a system to check everything now so nothing is left in the water.

A short piece of vinyl or surgical tubing goes over the wire arm where it clamps the line.

So how close were they? The graphics on my boat could be read from a couple hundred feet and there are conditions that may cause me to be at about that distance although my target minimum would be about 100 yards and prefer to pass much farther. I'm just guessing you probably think that 100 yard number is too close.

I've been on both sides of this fence as a cruiser and a troller. I can site you an example where it is difficult to pass everyone with a distance that everyone would find acceptable. At Big Sable Point north of Ludington, it is not uncommon to find boats trolling in all directions for a couple miles distance in anywhere from 30' to 300' feet of water. Because that is a point, it is normal to expect a cruiser to run near shore at that location. The same holds true for Little Point Sable as well as Point Betsie. In those locations, I try to pick the best course and do some weaving through the "fleet" because I understand that there are all kinds of lines away from a boat and it's uncomfortable to be rocked, but I've seen a few guys that I suspect weren't the most pleased at my route choice. I was asked one time, why don't I go 5 miles offshore and cruise there? It's a valid question but in essence I don't like the visit to the fuel dock any more than anyone else so I chart straight line legs to a cruise and adjust as necessary to conditions encountered along the route. Unless I fully come down to a no wake speed, my cruise wake is probably my best condition when passing others. If a port entrance is crowded, I will wait to power up until I am well clear of the harbor and come off plane well before entering a congested area. That's not the case with a lot of guys big boats and small. They don't come off plane until they enter the harbor and some a little later than that. I think that is a bit of a "show off" thing for the audience on the piers.

So that's my thoughts in reply to your rant. There's a line between sharing the water with lots of different kinds and sizes of boats and operating in a hazardous manner. I'd have to be there to know which it was.

No question every skipper on the lake isn't an angel. There are a few devils in the group.

10 years ago I would have agreed. Most newer units are much more efficient though and don't require that much gain.

I don't use Lowrance (and haven't in many years) but from what I have seen, they have both power/gain settings and sensitivity plus lots of other settings. The one setting I wouldn't ever rely on is automatic. Put it in manual mode and then start tweaking things.

I thought about that after I posted. The article was several years ago and the electronics advance year by year so that advice may be outdated. It would be good to get another take on the subject by someone in the industry as opposed to a bunch of opinions.

Given what I would consider to be a high amount of clutter/noise on your screen, my thought is that you are getting multiple readings of around 2 or 3 fish. Hard to really see on the picture but look for the marks being at depth multipliers -- highest good mark at 25' and another at 50, next highest at 30 with second at 60, 45/90... If gain is real high you could even get triple on shallow fish 30/60/90. The only reason I would have the gain/sensitivity that high with today's electronics would be if looking for small fish such as a school of perch near bottom in deeper water.

Basically the same thing as setting your depth range to 300' with the real bottom in 90'. If the gain or sensitivity is set too high you will see a second bottom at 180 and if it is real high, a third at 270.

I set my gain so that it is just lower than what is needed to get the second reading of bottom. Set the max depth to a little over 2x the actual depth and increase the gain until the double bottom snows up and then reduce it until it disappears. Then set the max to a range that will not show the 2nd bottom echo -- ie: bottom is 120 then max is 150.

I read an article several years ago that the proper gain setting was to just get the third echo to register. Set depth at least 3X the actual depth then increase/decrease gain to get that result. Surface clutter/noise reduction settings should be as minimal as possible.

Is everyone calling copper cu for short now?

That's its symbol on the periodic element chart. When writing, it's a proper abbreviation but wouldn't work "calling" it that.

Just wondering how the sunrise side is doing for salmon and steelhead? It would be nice to see some reports from Oscoda to the bridge.

Not much action in the Straits at the moment. Lakers are being taken here and there. A few good catches a week or so ago, but not so much the last couple days. Storms and wind due beginning tomorrow for a couple days may help or hinder the situation.

You must be a salesman! I love fishing too. I do love seeing other people catch fish, and if it is a kid that has only reeled in a few 13 inch bass and the fight a 18lb salmon......that is priceless.

I'm trying to find a boat that has a trailer so I can eliminate the storage fees, it just makes it easier to sell the idea to my wife. And I have a 4 stroke on my Lund and I can troll 6 hours on about 2 gallons of gas. So that will be a jolt to the system. But nothing that I can't do. Plus if I take some friends out they can throw a 20 down for gas.

A 27' Sea Ray Amberjack makes a real nice fishing/cruising package that is still trailerable. Dockmates a few years ago had one and it was nice. 6.2L Bravo III, a little aft cabin for the youngster and a stand up head for your wife.

Like this...

http://www.boattrader.com/listing/2008-SEA-RAY-270-Amberjack-102556868

Retired product engineer...not a salesman.

That's awesome. My wife and I are thinking about getting in the boat life. I have an 18ft Lund right now and I take it on lake Michigan but I'd rather get a bigger boat and slip.

Bigger offers a different boating experience. Since you made the cost comment earlier, know the costs involved before you make that leap. It can get costly depending on how large you get. Slip fees, storage fees, and increased operating and maintenance costs. My boat cruises at about 16-18 gph at 3000 rpm. Overall total usage cruising and trolling usually ends up somewhere around 5 gph. At $4/gallon (marina fuel) that's $20/hour just to run the boat.

That said, I wouldn't do it any other way. My days of getting up at dark-thirty and driving to a ramp, launching and then begin the fun part are over. I wake up, turn on the blowers, brew a pot of coffee, start the engines and cast off. After fishing, tie up and kick back and enjoy the camaraderie of fellow boaters in the marina. It takes a lot of the hassle out of the activity.

Then there are the vacation cruises. Without question, the very best time spent boating...and I do enjoy fishing very much.